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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #191  
Old 12-15-2015, 03:21 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GUT View Post
Originally number 26 had a brick wall with stairs behind it, (in what later became mjks room (but slightly larger than we know it.

Then when the building was sliced up for rooms to live in a orations was erected in MJKs side if the stairs so anyone entering the stairs couldn't see into her room?

I'm hopeless at posting sketches, that then effectively gives 3 rooms, 26, a small room that is now between 26 and Mary's room that is in effect little more than a stair well, (enclosed on one side by the brick wall on Giads and the Partition spoken of in evidence, and finally 13.

You enter 26 from the Street

Pratters stairwell from the passage and Mary's we know about.

As I said just a thought that seems to make the evidence fit, and makes sense (I think) for someone trying to get maximum use out of the building.
This is what I thought the solution to the problem might be but, if the plan is accurate, the space between the windows and the brick wall is only 9ft and you are surely going to need at least 3ft (more?) to squeeze in a space for the corridor to the staircase. That takes the width of Mary's room down to just 6ft. It's very small. Is it possible do you think?
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  #192  
Old 12-15-2015, 03:22 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post

That goes back to my wondering how the Goad maps were created. If they were from the original plans then they might well have been out of date in 1890. But if Goad sent people round to every property to measure up and take note of the internal structures in order to create their maps then I would expect them to be accurate.
For what its worth David, I would expect the only workable procedure is for original plans of new construction to be submitted to the City so they can update their Ordnance Survey Maps.

Landlords like McCarthy may have reworked any internal wooden walls to suit himself, but it is unlikely McCarthy submitted official plans to the City. It likely was not necessary for partition walls.
The Ordnance Survey Maps, in my opinion, will reflect how Nos. 26 & 27 were originally built, not necessary how they looked in 1888 (or whenever the map was dated).
McCarthy could have divided an original large room into two or three smaller rooms to increase his tenancy, we would never know this from the Goads Plans.

Perhaps these internal modifications are the reason the room numbers are not making any sense to us today?
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  #193  
Old 12-15-2015, 03:42 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
For what its worth David, I would expect the only workable procedure is for original plans of new construction to be submitted to the City so they can update their Ordnance Survey Maps.

Landlords like McCarthy may have reworked the internal walls to suit himself, but it is unlikely McCarthy submitted official plans to the City.
The Ordnance Survey Maps, in my opinion, will reflect how Nos. 26 & 27 were originally built, not necessary how they looked in 1888 (or whenever the map was dated).
McCarthy could have divided an original large room into two or three smaller rooms to increase his tenancy, we would never know this from the Goads Plans.

Perhaps these internal modifications are the reason the room numbers are not making any sense to us today?
Yes that could well explain everything.

My only reservation would be that Goad knows that the front of 26 is a shop (with 2 floors above) and the back is a 2 floor tenement building, as opposed to the whole thing being a single residential property. So I'm wondering where, for Goad, the stairs would have been (and how the residents on the upper floor in the tenement building could have accessed them to get to their rooms). On the diagram that we have, they can only either be in the shop or in the back room. So that's either intrusive for the shop or the person(s) living in the back room.

You would think there must be some kind of sectioned off area for that staircase but nothing is shown. Perhaps we can't expect quite so much detail from these plans.

I'm still puzzling over what that "opening" is.
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  #194  
Old 12-15-2015, 03:50 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Okay I accept that the door openings might not have been to scale.

But I'm not exactly sure what you are saying this opening actually is.

Is it the door to the stairs & Prater's room?
Yes, I see no reason to think this opening was not the first door down the passage which led to the stairs to the upper floors - AKA Prater's door.

Quote:
Or do you think it could be the gate that is referred to in the newspaper report you cited?
No, the "gate" will have been a front entrance created by McCarthy into the front room of No.26, to get his barrows inside. Now called the "shed".
Millers Court passage was not wide enough for a Costermongers barrow to fit down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
The interesting thing about that sketch is that it only shows a single door down the entire passage. Yet if you look at the 1899 sketch posted in this thread at the time of the Eliza Roberts murder we see a door almost adjacent to the door to Room 13. So one of those sketches must be wrong.
There are three or four sketches looking at Kelly's room from Millers Court, all of them have differences.
From our point of view, it makes no difference how far down the passage "Prater's door" was, the Goads Plan shows an opening, and all the press accounts agree that there were only two doors into No.26, Kelly's was the second, "Praters" was the first, there were no others mentioned.
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  #195  
Old 12-15-2015, 04:04 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
No, the "gate" will have been a front entrance created by McCarthy into the front room of No.26, to get his barrows inside. Now called the "shed".
Millers Court passage was not wide enough for a Costermongers barrow to fit down.
How wide was a Costermongers barrow and how wide was Miller's Court?

(I've seen 2ft 10" given as the answer to the latter but is this confirmed?)
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  #196  
Old 12-15-2015, 04:06 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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From our point of view, it makes no difference how far down the passage "Prater's door" was
I think it does from Richard's point of view as he has to make a decision about exactly where it was!

And if it was where the Goad map seems to place it, then it throws into some doubt the precise location of the staircase (which is, after all, the subject matter of this thread!).
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  #197  
Old 12-15-2015, 04:11 PM
richardh richardh is offline
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Back on track !

This is a new layout based on the drawings of Stephen Thomas (hope you don't mind me using them?).

Please provide feedback.

Q: Should the shed have stairs to the 1st floor landing?
Q: I can't fathom that spiral staircase in the centre of Stephen's drawing. Can this be further explained to me?
Q: the stairs on the 1st floor and the stairs on the 2nd floor - are they going in the right direction?
Q: didn't include the 'original staircase' which leads from the shed up to the landing because I couldn't get it to fit within the configuration I have at the moment. This needs explaining please.

I may have messed up big time with the stairs because the drawings configuration confused me. Can you put some direction arrows in the drawings?

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  #198  
Old 12-15-2015, 04:12 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
the Goads Plan shows an opening, and all the press accounts agree that there were only two doors into No.26, Kelly's was the second, "Praters" was the first, there were no others mentioned.
No, true, but the press accounts do mention a gate. The one you quoted didn't say exactly where it is. I appreciate that it could be where the windows would have been at the front of the property but I can't help feeling that replacing the windows with a gate would have been one fairly major bit of construction work. And we have one newspaper account which says the "windows" of number 26 were boarded up. I assume you say that this report was completely wrong because 26 didn't have any windows (something I find a very unusual in itself.)

I'm also not entirely convinced as to why Prater's door would have been included on a map which does not seem to include doors at all. I mean, Kelly's door is also within a brick wall but that is not included. Why Prater's?

I can't yet entirely rule out a gate in my mind but would be interested in knowing the width of a Costermonger's barrow as per my earlier post.
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  #199  
Old 12-15-2015, 04:52 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
No, true, but the press accounts do mention a gate. The one you quoted didn't say exactly where it is. I appreciate that it could be where the windows would have been at the front of the property but I can't help feeling that replacing the windows with a gate would have been one fairly major bit of construction work. And we have one newspaper account which says the "windows" of number 26 were boarded up. I assume you say that this report was completely wrong because 26 didn't have any windows (something I find a very unusual in itself.)
No.26 had windows at the front, the front room was originally the front room of a house.
what I was alluding to was, it is not a major feat of remodeling to take out the brickwork beneath each of the two front windows, then remove the remaining brickwork between the two windows, leaving a large open rectangle for access.
Obviously the remaining brickwork above the windows would require the installation of a beam or RSJ for support.
McCarthy must have fabricated a wooden gate to cover this hole in the wall.


Quote:
I'm also not entirely convinced as to why Prater's door would have been included on a map which does not seem to include doors at all. I mean, Kelly's door is also within a brick wall but that is not included. Why Prater's?
Take a look at this section of plan, the blue circle is another opening marked "1st" (meaning only in the ground/first floor).
This is also inside a passage, but the opening is in a firewall.



The red circle is an opening in an upper floor, the "3rd".

If you look slowly over the dwg you will see other openings, there are many of them, hardly any carry a notation of any kind.

Quote:
I can't yet entirely rule out a gate in my mind but would be interested in knowing the width of a Costermonger's barrow as per my earlier post.
The one I posted weeks ago was about 4ft wide axle hub to axle hub.
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Last edited by Wickerman : 12-15-2015 at 05:00 PM.
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  #200  
Old 12-15-2015, 04:58 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
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I can't yet entirely rule out a gate in my mind but would be interested in knowing the width of a Costermonger's barrow as per my earlier post.
Here are a couple of Coster's barrows, no way of telling their widths.

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