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  • Originally posted by louisa View Post
    Where have you read that "Patsy's handwriting was nothing stronger than a remote similarity at best" - where is the link for that statement?
    You know already... you provided the link:

    Here's a link that contains a lot of info. I think you'll see that most of the experts say that Patsy could not be ruled out as the author of the ransom note. All other people who submitted examples WERE ruled out though.

    http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/...%20RN%20Author
    The subject leads with:
    (My Emphasis)

    No BPD-Hired Experts Identified Patsy as RN Author. "During the investigation, the Boulder Police Department and Boulder County District Attorney's Office consulted at least six handwriting experts. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) All of these experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.) Four of these experts were hired by the police and two were hired by defendants. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 195; PSMF P 195.)

    Whereas the section which you promote leads with this:
    (My Emphasis)

    At Least 10 Professionals Concluded Patsy Was Author. All told, 10 professional experts of varying qualifications hired by various parties in this case and 6 authors/Internet posters (also of varying qualifications) have formally analyzed the RN and concluded Patsy is the author.


    Caveat: None Used Original RN or Exemplars. However, it is worth noting that none of these experts/individuals relied on either original versions of the RN or exemplars.

    Importance of Originals. In her opinion in the Chris Wolf case, Judge Carnes observed: "Although it is widely considered "very important" to consult the original versions of writings when engaging in handwriting analysis, plaintiff Chris Wolf asserts it was impossible for his experts to consult such materials because defendants failed to provide him with original exemplars. (PSMF PP 259-260.) (Carnes 2003:27).

    No Effort to Obtain Originals. But Carnes also noted: "The Court is unaware that plaintiff ever sought to compel Mrs. Ramsey to produce original exemplars. Presumably, the original Ransom Note is in the custody of the police." (Carnes 2003:28).


    There is justifiable reason for reading this important point:

    Expertise of Examiners. The expertise and high ethical standards of these experts was summarized by Darnay Hoffman, an attorney for Chris Wolf, who sought to prove that Patsy Ramsey was the note writer, in a fax to Tom Miller, a handwriting expert he had hired (see below): "I spoke with handwriting expert Paul A. Osborn...He refuses to touch the Ramsey case with a ten foot pole. His reasons: he knows the handwriting experts who gave their reports to the defense team and to C.B.I.--four in all. According to Osborn these experts are supposedly top of their field (he won't give me their names) with impeccable ethical credentials. Their verdict: the similarities between Patsy and the ransom note writers handwriting is at the very lowest end of the spectrum, i.e., there is little or no basis for match."

    Just in case you missed this :

    there is little or no basis for match.

    When a document examiner does not use originals their conclusions are less than viable, and no document examiner who believed Patsy wrote the note worked with an original document.
    All the document examiners who worked with the original document found Patsy to be a low contender as the author.
    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • You and I both know that the consensus of opinion of the forensic experts was that Patsy Ramsey COULD NOT BE RULED OUT as the author of the ransom note. And that is how it remains today, whether you like it or not.

      Everybody else who gaves handwriting samples was ruled out.

      If I went searching for the expert linguists who thought Patsy was the author of the note I would have a longer list, but I don't want to copy and paste entire pages, because that would be boring. But I'll do it if you like.


      Here's an interesting website....

      Last edited by louisa; 10-09-2016, 09:24 AM.
      This is simply my opinion

      Comment


      • The person who wrote the ransom note was the person who killed JonBenet.


        The person who wrote the ransom note was trying desperately to disguise their handwriting.

        Why would a stranger wish to disguise their writing?


        Chet Ubowski - Colorado Bureau of Investigation Handwriting Expert:

        "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey"

        He is said to have found 24 of 26 letters in the ransom note which matched examples from Patsy Ramsey.


        For those who may not have already seen this......but bear in mind that Patsy was trying to disguise her handwriting. I can also post her right handed sampler if required.


        Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

        there is little or no basis for match.
        Really?




        Last edited by louisa; 10-09-2016, 09:29 AM.
        This is simply my opinion

        Comment


        • Originally posted by louisa View Post
          Can you give me a link please because I have had look on the Colorado Bar Association's website and cannot find any such ruling. I am prepared to accept that I could be wrong though. (After all, I was wrong about something back in 1957).

          Maybe I need SpecSavers.



          I think that John wanted each of them to have separate lawyers because he could envisage a possible conflict of interest in the future, i.e. if Patsy cracked whilst being interviewed or cross examined and told a story of John's involvement (whether it be true or false) then John's lawyers would be able to distance their client from her.
          Not John, it was Mike but yes, now that was not too taxing to figure out was it.

          You will find the scenario covered by this clause:


          "Mike Bynum, John Ramsey's business attorney and friend who hired attorneys for the family, has said he did so without specific permission from the family"

          Believe that and you will believe anything. There is no way a lawyer would make a move without the instructions of his client.
          Perhaps you are attempting to pass judgement on a segment of society for which you have no experience?
          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
            Not John, it was Mike but yes, now that was not too taxing to figure out was it.
            No, I meant John. I think that John wanted them to have separate lawyers - and once Mike Bynum knew the reason for it, he agreed that it would be an excellent idea.

            Thank you for that link.

            "A lawyer shall not represent a client IF the representation involves a concurrent conflict of interest"

            My point exactly!

            Nowhere does it say that a married couple CANNOT share the same lawyer, but in some cases (like this one) it would not be advisable.


            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post


            Perhaps you are attempting to pass judgement on a segment of society for which you have no experience?
            You mean the fat cats like John and Patsy? That's a bit snobbish of you, isn't it? Especially when you have no idea what segment of society I am from.
            Last edited by louisa; 10-09-2016, 10:47 AM.
            This is simply my opinion

            Comment


            • Originally posted by louisa View Post
              You and I both know that the consensus of opinion of the forensic experts was that Patsy Ramsey COULD NOT BE RULED OUT as the author of the ransom note. And that is how it remains today, whether you like it or not.
              Of course, which is miles away from your assertion that she did write it.
              I repeat....(from post #511).
              1 - All of these experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey.
              2 - None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note.
              That, is the truth of the matter.

              NONE!

              Everybody else who gaves handwriting samples was ruled out.
              How do you mean "everybody"?, outside the family there were only three people - Fleet White, Bill McReynolds & Joe Barnhill.
              What about those "hundreds" of suspects the BPD claimed to have investigated?
              Is "everybody" an exaggeration, or can you identify or at least quantify what you mean by "everybody"?
              Maybe you are alluding to a number of people who Ubowski himself checked out, outside the BPD investigation?

              What about the sworn testimony of Alex Hunter?
              "...the sworn testimony of Alex Hunter. In his deposition for the Wolf v. Ramsey libel case, Alex Hunter acknowledged that these experts had concluded chances of Patsy writing the note were "very low" and also asserted there were other individuals who were under suspicion whose handwriting was analyzed that were not eliminated as the author of the note."

              But why should you mention that (above), you don't like Alex Hunter either, do you.


              If I went searching for the expert linguists who thought Patsy was the author of the note I would have a longer list, but I don't want to copy and paste entire pages, because that would be boring. But I'll do it if you like.
              The subject requires quality, not quantity - how long is your list of "experts" who worked from the original documents?
              Take your time...

              The person who wrote the ransom note was trying desperately to disguise their handwriting.

              Why would a stranger wish to disguise their writing?
              The writer was not a stranger, that is apparent from the contents of the note.


              Chet Ubowski - Colorado Bureau of Investigation Handwriting Expert:

              "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey"

              He is said to have found 24 of 26 letters in the ransom note which matched examples from Patsy Ramsey.
              Ah, Ubowski yes.
              First he writes that there are "indications" Patsy "may have" wrote it.
              Then, he writes that, "the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion."
              Finally we have a comment that, "..Chet Ubowski. He also told Pete Mang, his boss at the CBI, that his gut told him it was her handwriting".

              His gut?, is that what the opinion of this expert boils down to?
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                Of course, which is miles away from your assertion that she did write it.
                I repeat....(from post #511).
                1 - All of these experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey.
                2 - None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note.
                That, is the truth of the matter.

                NONE!
                I agree that none of the six experts on YOUR list identified Patsy as being the author of the note - but then they wouldn't - wouldn't they? You've been selective.

                Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                How do you mean "everybody"?, outside the family there were only three people - Fleet White, Bill McReynolds & Joe Barnhill.
                What about those "hundreds" of suspects the BPD claimed to have investigated?
                Is "everybody" an exaggeration, or can you identify or at least quantify what you mean by "everybody"?
                Maybe you are alluding to a number of people who Ubowski himself checked out, outside the BPD investigation?
                Police Chief Mark Beckner.

                We have spent an incredible amount of time following up on leads in this case and a significant amount on the leads put forth by Lou Smit,” Beckner said.

                INRI, Page 297:
                "We had interviewed 590 people,
                consulted 64 outside experts,
                investigated and cleared more than 100 possible suspects,
                collected 1,058 pieces of evidence,
                tested over 500 items at federal, state, and private laboratories,
                gathered handwriting and nontestimonial evidence from 215 people,
                built a case file that now bulged to 30,000 pages,
                reviewed more than 3,400 letters and 700 telephone tips, and contacted seventeen states and two foreign countries.
                AND IT ALL KEPT LEADING US IN ONE DIRECTION.
                The detective team believed that John and Patsy Ramsey had knowledge of, and were involved in, the death of their daughter, JonBenet
                ."

                Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                What about the sworn testimony of Alex Hunter?
                "...the sworn testimony of Alex Hunter. In his deposition for the Wolf v. Ramsey libel case, Alex Hunter acknowledged that these experts had concluded chances of Patsy writing the note were "very low" and also asserted there were other individuals who were under suspicion whose handwriting was analyzed that were not eliminated as the author of the note."

                But why should you mention that (above), you don't like Alex Hunter either, do you.
                Alex Hunter? Don't make me laugh. He was in the pocket of the Ramseys. The last thing he wanted was for this case to go to trial. It would have bankrupted the city. He would have lost his job.



                "The star-crossed investigation was marred by open feuding between the office of then-Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter and the Boulder Police Department. A grand jury heard evidence from September 1998 through October 1999, but was discharged with no action publicly revealed.

                In January 2013, the Daily Camera reported that the grand jury had voted to indict both John and Patsy Ramsey in their youngest child's death, but that Hunter had refused to sign the indictments, judging that there was insufficient evidence to prove the charges at trial.

                A subsequent lawsuit by a Daily Camera reporter revealed in October 2013 that each parent had been indicted for felony child abuse resulting in death and accessory to the crimes of first-degree murder and child abuse resulting in death. Hunter, however, refused to sign the indictments
                ."

                Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                The subject requires quality, not quantity - how long is your list of "experts" who worked from the original documents?
                Take your time...
                My list will be longer. There are a great many names on that same website, the same one you use, if you can be bothered to look.

                Unlike yourself I have a life and other things to do other than justifying what I write, just for your pleasure. It's all there on the internet.

                If I have nothing better to do tomorrow I will find the list. Right now it's 11.32pm and I'm going to bed.

                Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                The writer was not a stranger, that is apparent from the contents of the note.
                Of course it wasn't a stranger. It was Patsy Ramsey.

                Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                Ah, Ubowski yes.
                First he writes that there are "indications" Patsy "may have" wrote it.
                Written it, you mean?

                He was another expert who could not rule Patsy out, along with most of the other ones that were consulted. Not many wanted to stick their necks out and state Patsy definitely wrote it, just in case they got sued but they definitely thought she had.

                The Ramseys liked suing people.



                Here's the Thought For the Day:

                Has nobody ever wondered why this strange person who broke into the Ramseys (and left again without leaving a trace)who spent hours wandering around and writing a bizarre 3 page ransom note, who then abducted, sexually abused (in a very odd manner) and killed a child in the most bizarre fashion, never ever did anything remotely similar ever again?
                Last edited by louisa; 10-09-2016, 03:37 PM.
                This is simply my opinion

                Comment




                • THE ORIGINAL RANSOM NOTE






                  PATSY'S HANDWRITING SAMPLE



                  I haven't posted the entire letters here because they would take up too much space on the page.
                  Last edited by louisa; 10-09-2016, 03:29 PM.
                  This is simply my opinion

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by louisa View Post


                    THE ORIGINAL RANSOM NOTE




                    PATSY'S HANDWRITING SAMPLE

                    I haven't posted the entire letters here because they would take up too much space on the page.
                    I mean was she TRYING to copy the handwriting? That's incredibly similar.

                    Looks like her handwriting to me. No question.

                    Comment


                    • Hi Abby,

                      It won't look remotely similar to Wickerman though. You can be sure of it.
                      This is simply my opinion

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by louisa View Post
                        No, I meant John. I think that John wanted them to have separate lawyers - and once Mike Bynum knew the reason for it, he agreed that it would be an excellent idea.
                        We have John R on tape saying Mike advised him they are both being targeted, and said, "so would you allow me to make suitable arrangements John?" (or words to that effect).
                        Where John replied, "yes, whatever you deem necessary".
                        (I have Mike Bynum making the same statement).
                        I can extract the precise verbatim if it is necessary, but I am here trying to convey the point that, neither according to Mike or John, did John Ramsey decide to hire lawyers.
                        It was Mike Bynum who made the suggestion.


                        Nowhere does it say that a married couple CANNOT share the same lawyer, but in some cases (like this one) it would not be advisable.
                        It doesn't have to say "cannot", the cannot is determined by the seriousness of the charges. Remember, the rule is made to cover a variety of circumstances. This is Rules of Professional Conduct, it is the severity of the suspicions that warrant a "cannot", under penalty of misconduct.


                        You mean the fat cats like John and Patsy? That's a bit snobbish of you, isn't it? Especially when you have no idea what segment of society I am from.
                        Not at all, I have only ever spoken to a lawyer twice in my life, outside the lawyer my wife worked for, but not everyone's wife works for a lawyer.
                        However, if you moved in social circles where successful businessmen played golf with their attorney friends, and had them over for dinner every so often, you would appreciate how "normal" their relationship was, for their kind.
                        Regards, Jon S.

                        Comment


                        • When you see the full letters you can see she slipped up a couple of times with the alternate "a" she was using.

                          It looks pretty obvious it's the same author to me, even if she was ambidextrous and able to use her left hand to write it.
                          My opinion is all I have to offer here,

                          Dave.

                          Smilies are canned laughter.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by louisa View Post
                            I agree that none of the six experts on YOUR list identified Patsy as being the author of the note - but then they wouldn't - wouldn't they? You've been selective.
                            It's not MY list though, is it!
                            These six experts were selected and hired by the BOULDER POLICE and the defendants, it's THEIR list, not mine.

                            No BPD-Hired Experts Identified Patsy as RN Author.
                            "During the investigation, the Boulder Police Department and Boulder County District Attorney's Office consulted at least six handwriting experts. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) All of these experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.) Four of these experts were hired by the police and two were hired by defendants. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 195; PSMF P 195.) [Emphasis added.]

                            All manner of interested parties jumped on the bandwagon after. Which is where you are turning for YOUR experts - why?, because the six experts hired by the Police did not arrive at the conclusion YOU prefer.
                            So, now who is being selective?


                            Alex Hunter? Don't make me laugh. He was in the pocket of the Ramseys.
                            See, there's another assertion you make without a shred of evidence, or, maybe you do have evidence of some sort of collusion between the Ramsey's and Alex Hunter?
                            I don't suppose it's another emotional based comment is it?


                            The last thing he wanted was for this case to go to trial. It would have bankrupted the city. He would have lost his job.
                            Rubbish.



                            "The star-crossed investigation was marred by open feuding between the office of then-Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter and the Boulder Police Department. A grand jury heard evidence from September 1998 through October 1999, but was discharged with no action publicly revealed.

                            In January 2013, the Daily Camera reported that the grand jury had voted to indict both John and Patsy Ramsey in their youngest child's death, but that Hunter had refused to sign the indictments, judging that there was insufficient evidence to prove the charges at trial.

                            A subsequent lawsuit by a Daily Camera reporter revealed in October 2013 that each parent had been indicted for felony child abuse resulting in death and accessory to the crimes of first-degree murder and child abuse resulting in death. Hunter, however, refused to sign the indictments
                            ."
                            Right, and we know why don't we - the Boulder Police did not allow the Jury to hear the DNA evidence. They controlled exactly what evidence the jury were given and that was only the evidence which supported the Boulder Police theory.
                            Which sounds to me like an attempt to pervert the course of justice.
                            Alex Hunter was correct in what he did.

                            I don't know if you are aware of this but Lou Smit wanted to go before a Grand Jury to present his evidence but his attempt was blocked by the Boulder Police, who in turn tried to have ALL Smit's evidence seized and destroyed.
                            Lou Smit had to turn to his own D.A.'s/attorney's back in Denver who banded together to stop such an outrage.
                            NO police department or legal institution should ever be party to the seizure and destruction of evidence in an open murder investigation.

                            These are the type of people you are throwing your trust behind.
                            Last edited by Wickerman; 10-09-2016, 04:49 PM.
                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                              We have John R on tape saying Mike advised him they are both being targeted, and said, "so would you allow me to make suitable arrangements John?" (or words to that effect).
                              Where John replied, "yes, whatever you deem necessary".
                              (I have Mike Bynum making the same statement).
                              "Would you like me to make suitable arrangements" is NOT referring to anything in particular, is it?"

                              He could be making arrangements for anything.

                              Of course the Ramseys were targeted! Surely they could not have been surprised at that? Their child was found horribly murdered in her own home that had been locked down for the night and there was no evidence of an intruder.

                              Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                              I can extract the precise verbatim if it is necessary, but I am here trying to convey the point that, neither according to Mike or John, did John Ramsey decide to hire lawyers.
                              It was Mike Bynum who made the suggestion.
                              You are extremely naive in totally, and unquestioningly, believing stuff the Ramseys OR their lawyers have said. It's laughable.

                              Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                              However, if you moved in social circles where successful businessmen played golf with their attorney friends, and had them over for dinner every so often, you would appreciate how "normal" their relationship was, for their kind.
                              You have no idea what my background is, Wickerman, but you are showing yours by making that patronizing comment.
                              This is simply my opinion

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                                It's not MY list though, is it!
                                These six experts were selected and hired by the BOULDER POLICE and the defendants, it's THEIR list, not mine.
                                It is your list because it's the one you posted. You carefully avoided the other experts who found that Patsy COULD have written the note.

                                [/QUOTE]

                                Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                                See, there's another assertion you make without a shred of evidence, or, maybe you do have evidence of some sort of collusion between the Ramsey's and Alex Hunter?
                                I don't suppose it's another emotional based comment is it?


                                Rubbish.
                                Yes, I agree, your post is rubbish.

                                I have given you enough material to see that Alex Hunter was biased in favour of the Ramseys. I feel I'm banging my head against a wall trying to get through to you.

                                You are ignoring what is right in your face and preferring to believe a lot of convoluted claptrap that makes no sense.

                                Originally posted by Wickerman View Post


                                I don't know if you are aware of this but Lou Smit wanted to go before a Grand Jury to present his evidence but his attempt was blocked by the Boulder Police, who in turn tried to have ALL Smit's evidence seized and destroyed.
                                You see Wickerman, there you go - making the kind of unsubstantiated statement that you criticize ME for making.

                                Lou Smit DID present his case to the Grand Jury.



                                Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                                These are the type of people you are throwing your trust behind.
                                And just look at the murderers and their lawyers that YOU are throwing your trust behind.
                                This is simply my opinion

                                Comment

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