Chapmans death time, my experiments

[doris]

Hullo all,

I read a jolly interesting article on here about the time generally accepted (5.30) for annie's death being bunkum. And we should discredit the eye-witnesses and listen to what Dr Philips had to say.

I, in my ignorance, decided it would be a simple matter to use Dr Phillips statement in which he said all was cold apart from a little heat under the intestines, the temperature on the day,
and the bodies cooling rate to arrive at a time from death to 6.30.

I got the temps from the casebook, using the min and max readings for both London as a whole and whitechapel, I decided to average them (just for starters, actually I think the 7th min temps are a bit off when one looks at both the london and whitechapel numbers). ANd then assume that the coldest temp would be midnight and the warmest at midday (this actually triggered another train of thought, what time of day were the readings taken? As each day has 2 nearly midnights which should be the coldest, the first or second?)

Anyhoo ignoring all that I established an approx temp for the time of death.

Then I decided to research body cooling times. Crikey is that a minefield! So I took the 1.6f an hour that I see a lot, and increase it a bit for open abdomen and blood loss.

But then I had another problem, what 'feels' warm.

So at the moment I have a bath full of water at 100f with a thermometer in it, I, and a chum, arte popping our hands into it and deciding when it no longer feels warm, in order to try to inderstand what Dr Phillips felt.

I certainly never thought, whilst emabking on this Ripper journey, that it would involve baths full of water and thermometers!

Doris

[corey123]

Doris,


Actually, Phillips arrived at 6:30. She died close or even at 5:30. There is an great piece in "News from Whitechapel" explaining this.

Long said she left home after five and hit Sitalfields market at half past five. It is noted that it would take fifteen minutes to walk from Church Row to the corner of Brick Lane and Hanbury st. When Long noticed the time she did not look back at the clock so it may have been the clock striking 5:15 NOT 5:30.

So long saw the Unsub at 5:15 and Cadoche heard the words "No" at 5:20.

So Phillips was right in suggesting what he did.

She most likely died around 5:30.

Yours truly

[doris]

Hmm, but in my experience a quater past clock sound is nothing like a half past clock sound. A half past chime has far more dongs.

That is what I have problems with, and didn't phillips say a couple of hours befor he saw the body?

I would dearly love to be convinced that 5.30 was the TOD so I can enjoy Long and Cadoshes testimony.

Better go the bath is getting cold!

[doris]

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-doubt.html

The above link is to the article that I read on this site.

Iam not saying that I agree with anything written in it, just that I have considered the same points raised, especially about clock chime sounds.

doris

[Supe]

Doris,

Your efforts are laudable and probably a certain amount of fun, but largely in vain. Remember, your definition of "cold" will be as subjective as Phillips' was and can bear no relation to what it was he must have perceived. As it is, his look and a grope is absolutely worthless without a detailed analysis of Chapman's medical condition and all the elements that can frustrate a determination of time of death.

Even today, with all the forensic advances, medical examiners will admit that time of death is nothing more than a guess. I would not place much faith in Phillips' opinion.

Don.

[doris]

Doris,

Your efforts are laudable and probably a certain amount of fun, but largely in vain. Remember, your definition of "cold" will be as subjective as Phillips' was and can bear no relation to what it was he must have perceived. As it is, his look and a grope is absolutely worthless without a detailed analysis of Chapman's medical condition and all the elements that can frustrate a determination of time of death.

Even today, with all the forensic advances, medical examiners will admit that time of death is nothing more than a guess. I would not place much faith in Phillips' opinion.

Don.

Iam afraid you are probably right.

Even my assistant and I cannot agree on what feels warm.

But even that is something I didn't know earlier. And all new knowledge is a good thing.

doris

[corey123]

Doris,

We will never know what that particular clock sounded but it was 5:15 when she hit spitalfields markets.

Doris, there is no way in Hell that chapman was killed at 6:30 since this was exactly the time Dr.Phillips arrived at the scene. The reason for the coldness can be marked very easily. The exposed organs, the cold temperature of that day was marked as being MAX: 60.5 degrees MIN: 46.3 degrees RAIN n/a CHANCE OF RAIN 30% DETAILS Bright morning; fair afternoon; spots of rain in evening .

She was found just before Six a.m. The killer needed AT LEAST five minutes to perform the mutilations. In my opinion, he needed WAY more. More like ten to fifteen minutes.

Also, remember John Richardson was cutting his boot on the second step between 4:40 and 4:50. This leaves us with a bracket between 5:15 and 5:45. Giving the killer efficient time to escape.

I am afraid this bracket is the closest we will get to the TOD.

[doris]

Doris,

We will never know what that particular clock sounded but it was 5:15 when she hit spitalfields markets.

Doris, there is no way in Hell that chapman was killed at 6:30 since this was exactly the time Dr.Phillips arrived at the scene. The reason for the coldness can be marked very easily. The exposed organs, the cold temperature of that day was marked as being MAX: 60.5 degrees MIN: 46.3 degrees RAIN n/a CHANCE OF RAIN 30% DETAILS Bright morning; fair afternoon; spots of rain in evening .

She was found just before Six a.m. The killer needed AT LEAST five minutes to perform the mutilations. In my opinion, he needed WAY more. More like ten to fifteen minutes.

Also, remember John Richardson was cutting his boot on the second step between 4:40 and 4:50. This leaves us with a bracket between 5:15 and 5:45. Giving the killed efficient time to escape.

I know all that corey mate.

And I never for a moment thought TOD was 6.30.

Iam just saying that Philips 2 hour before seeing the corpse TOD statement is a bit of discrepancy, and it has interested me.

As I said I was hoping to disprove his opinion becuase I love Long and Cadosches statements.

It was just that the article, the link of which I have posted, made me think.

Cheers corey dear boy.

doris

Oh and the article throws a great deal of doubt on Richardsons testimony (which alarmed me!)

Why did he lie about his knife?

[corey123]

Doris,

Only trying to help. Glad your interested.

Cheers

[doris]

Doris,

Only trying to help. Glad your interested.

Cheers

Oh crikey corey please don't think Iam annoyed!

You are my first casebook chum!

doris

Iam just worried, having read and remembered most of Begg and Sugdens books it alarms me that they might not be entirely factual!

I thought they were the best books, yet now Iam worried that some of the contents may be conjecture.

[corey123]

Doris,

No not annoyed. Ha ha. Don't worry.

Cheers

[doris]

And don't forget ."(this is my literary discovery and is copyright protected)"...

[corey123]

Doris,

Yes.. I noticed it. Ha ha ha.

[DaveMc]

Hullo all,

I read a jolly interesting article on here about the time generally accepted (5.30) for annie's death being bunkum. And we should discredit the eye-witnesses and listen to what Dr Philips had to say.

I, in my ignorance, decided it would be a simple matter to use Dr Phillips statement in which he said all was cold apart from a little heat under the intestines, the temperature on the day,
and the bodies cooling rate to arrive at a time from death to 6.30.

I got the temps from the casebook, using the min and max readings for both London as a whole and whitechapel, I decided to average them (just for starters, actually I think the 7th min temps are a bit off when one looks at both the london and whitechapel numbers). ANd then assume that the coldest temp would be midnight and the warmest at midday (this actually triggered another train of thought, what time of day were the readings taken? As each day has 2 nearly midnights which should be the coldest, the first or second?)

Anyhoo ignoring all that I established an approx temp for the time of death.

Then I decided to research body cooling times. Crikey is that a minefield! So I took the 1.6f an hour that I see a lot, and increase it a bit for open abdomen and blood loss.

But then I had another problem, what 'feels' warm.

So at the moment I have a bath full of water at 100f with a thermometer in it, I, and a chum, arte popping our hands into it and deciding when it no longer feels warm, in order to try to inderstand what Dr Phillips felt.

I certainly never thought, whilst emabking on this Ripper journey, that it would involve baths full of water and thermometers!

Doris

Determining the time of death by temperature was not an accurate science at the time. Even now, they have to be careful of the circumstances.

There are times when I hold my wife's arm, she would be declared dead for over 10 hours. Much depends on the temperature of my own hands.

And don't feel bad about running tests.
My untold "killer's candle theory" involved dripping wax from a few candle types on the back of my own hand.

The blister from one indicates the level of my random stupidity.

[DaveMc]

She was found just before Six a.m. The killer needed AT LEAST five minutes to perform the mutilations. In my opinion, he needed WAY more. More like ten to fifteen minutes.

Hi Corey,

I come into this thinking the same thing.
You can find some autopsy videos online.
It goes much faster than I thought it would.
It takes less than 4 minutes to have the chest plate removed
and the entire torso cavity exposed.

And that's done with a careful hand in no real hurry.

I'm still wondering just how quickly and possibly cleanly it was all done.