Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Periodicals: Upcoming Article - by TomTomKent 1 hour and 29 minutes ago.
Periodicals: Upcoming Article - by TomTomKent 2 hours ago.
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - by NickB 2 hours ago.
Mary Jane Kelly: George Hutchinson Shadowing Sarah Lewis' Statement - by Darryl Kenyon 4 hours ago.
Mary Jane Kelly: George Hutchinson Shadowing Sarah Lewis' Statement - by Wickerman 5 hours ago.
Mary Jane Kelly: George Hutchinson Shadowing Sarah Lewis' Statement - by Wickerman 5 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Mary Jane Kelly: George Hutchinson Shadowing Sarah Lewis' Statement - (7 posts)
Periodicals: Upcoming Article - (6 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Help On Some Details - (4 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (3 posts)
Casebook Announcements: Server Switching and Reprogramming.. - (1 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Most accurate reconstruction (Graphic Warning) - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Other Mysteries

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #931  
Old 12-20-2018, 03:12 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 3,158
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by etenguy View Post
I didn't have him kneeling, certainly not for the first blow. I haven't seen the autopsy report, it may provide some insights into the attack angle etc..

If he was kneeling, protection would have been fuller.
Hi Eten,

We cant know any of this of course and we could all be wrong but it’s been my suggestion that Wallace struck the first blow around the same time that Julia handed him the mackintosh in front of the fire. Wallace then kneeled at the side of Julia or across her legs and with the mackintosh over his left arm, hanging from his mouth to the floor, administered the final blows. Then he wiped the weapon on the mackintosh and pushed it beneath Julia’sbody withthe effect of smearing the signs of blood spatter.
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #932  
Old 12-20-2018, 03:20 PM
ColdCaseJury ColdCaseJury is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: England
Posts: 372
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
With Wallace kneeling a full length mackintosh would easily reach the three feet or so from his mouth to the carpet. All that would be in the line of fire would have been the top two thirds of his head and his moving right arm.
As I picture the scene, HS, Wallace is kneeling and using the mackintosh a bit like a riot shield, from ground to face, to guard against blood splatter. If so, two comments.

a) I find it difficult to believe that Wallace would have been able to adopt this stance for the first blow, even if Julia were seated. If she was standing, it would seem extremely difficult, wouldn't you agree?

b) How did the bottom of the mackintosh catch fire? If he was kneeling, it is difficult to see how the bottom draped into the fire; the clays were about 8-12" above the floor and recessed into the fireplace.

I suggest the mackintosh was (a) being worn - either by Wallace (and the bottom draped across the hot fire clays) or by Julia, draping it around her shoulders when it fell onto the fire. The burnt portion appears to be consistent with either scenario in my opinion. Or (b) Wallace tried to burn the mackintosh deliberately as alleged by the prosecution.

I think most people think (b) very unlikely. Just one thought, HS. If Wallace was wearing the mackintosh (or used it as a splatter shield) surely he would have strode into the room and would have been positioned in front of his wife, perhaps to the side. To drape the mackintosh into the fire, Wallace would have stood right on the hearth. I find it difficult to see why he would have stood so close to the fire.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #933  
Old 12-20-2018, 03:26 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 3,158
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham View Post
Something else occurred to me. It seems that Wallace hadn't been to the chess club since the previous October, so how did the caller know he'd be there on the night he made the call? Or was it just a lucky guess? Or what?

G
Hello Graham,

From memory I think that Wallace hadn’t been to the club for a couple of weeks rather than longer.

Rod’s Accomplice theory has Parry in Breck Road watching Wallace leave for the club then going to make the call. For me there are 2 issues with this. 1. How many times would Parry have been prepared to wait until Wallace actually went to the club? Especially if, as has been suggested, he was desperate for cash. Would he have been prepared to sit there for two or even three weeks say until he could finally say to his accomplice “ok, we’re on for tomorrow night.” How annoyed would he have been if the accomplice had said “tomorrow? Sorry mate I can’t make it tomorrow!”

And 2. What if Wallace had left the house via the front door, gone through the estate and up onto Lower Breck Road? Parry wouldn’t have known that Wallace was off to the club because he wouldn’t have seen him,unless he knew for a fact that Wallace always caught the tram in Breck Road Of course which I cant say is impossible but it’s hard to see how Wallace’s route to the club might have come up in conversation.

Of course I have to add that only one person knew for a fact that he was going to the club that night.
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #934  
Old 12-20-2018, 03:35 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 3,158
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdCaseJury View Post
As I picture the scene, HS, Wallace is kneeling and using the mackintosh a bit like a riot shield, from ground to face, to guard against blood splatter. If so, two comments.

a) I find it difficult to believe that Wallace would have been able to adopt this stance for the first blow, even if Julia were seated. If she was standing, it would seem extremely difficult, wouldn't you agree?

b) How did the bottom of the mackintosh catch fire? If he was kneeling, it is difficult to see how the bottom draped into the fire; the clays were about 8-12" above the floor and recessed into the fireplace.

I suggest the mackintosh was (a) being worn - either by Wallace (and the bottom draped across the hot fire clays) or by Julia, draping it around her shoulders when it fell onto the fire. The burnt portion appears to be consistent with either scenario in my opinion. Or (b) Wallace tried to burn the mackintosh deliberately as alleged by the prosecution.

I think most people think (b) very unlikely. Just one thought, HS. If Wallace was wearing the mackintosh (or used it as a splatter shield) surely he would have strode into the room and would have been positioned in front of his wife, perhaps to the side. To drape the mackintosh into the fire, Wallace would have stood right on the hearth. I find it difficult to see why he would have stood so close to the fire.
Hi Antony,

It’s only my suggestion of course but:

Julia closes the front door as Close leaves.
Wallace is in the Parlour at the mirror.
He calls for Julia to bring him his mackintosh as he’s going out.
Julia stands next to Wallace at the fireplace and hands him the mackintosh.
As Wallace bends down to pick up the iron bar the coat accidentally hangs in the fire.
They both put out the fire; Julia skirt gets singed.
Wallace hits Julia with the bar and she falls, unconscious or barely conscious.
Wallace drapes the coat over his left arm.
He kneels near to Julia, and with the mackintosh hanging from the level of his mouth to the floor he administers the remaining blows.

I certainly agree that point b) is unlikely in the extreme.
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #935  
Old 12-20-2018, 03:35 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 418
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdCaseJury View Post
As I picture the scene, HS, Wallace is kneeling and using the mackintosh a bit like a riot shield, from ground to face, to guard against blood splatter. If so, two comments.

a) I find it difficult to believe that Wallace would have been able to adopt this stance for the first blow, even if Julia were seated. If she was standing, it would seem extremely difficult, wouldn't you agree?

b) How did the bottom of the mackintosh catch fire? If he was kneeling, it is difficult to see how the bottom draped into the fire; the clays were about 8-12" above the floor and recessed into the fireplace.

I suggest the mackintosh was (a) being worn - either by Wallace (and the bottom draped across the hot fire clays) or by Julia, draping it around her shoulders when it fell onto the fire. The burnt portion appears to be consistent with either scenario in my opinion. Or (b) Wallace tried to burn the mackintosh deliberately as alleged by the prosecution.

I think most people think (b) very unlikely. Just one thought, HS. If Wallace was wearing the mackintosh (or used it as a splatter shield) surely he would have strode into the room and would have been positioned in front of his wife, perhaps to the side. To drape the mackintosh into the fire, Wallace would have stood right on the hearth. I find it difficult to see why he would have stood so close to the fire.
Is it not safe for us to conclude Julia was wearing the mackintosh, at least around her shoulders? I suggest this on the basis that her dress was also singed and it would seem reasonable to infer the dress singeing and mackintosh burning was one event. To have both happen independently seems highly unlikely. If this was the case, the murderer could not be using it as protection from blood splattering.

Edit - posted before I saw HS scenario of the burning - though I don't find two accidental burnings in succession very probable.

Last edited by etenguy : 12-20-2018 at 03:40 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #936  
Old 12-20-2018, 03:45 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 3,158
Default

Antony, perhaps you can answer a question. It’s just one of those small and possibly meaningless points.

On the Monday evening it’s taken that a guilty Wallace caught his tram near to the phone box whereas an innocent Wallace caught the tram in Breck Road near to the junction of Belmont Road.

To get into Breck Road he walked along Richmond Park and then turned right. Why did he walk past two stops - one at the end of Richmond Park, the other at the end of (fingers crossed for my memory here) Pendennis Street?

Where these stops pick up points on the Monday night?

If they were, the only reason that I could come up with for why Wallace might have walked so far on would have been if the stop near Belont Road was a point where the fair dropped and so Wallace was trying to save a bit of cash? Was that the case do you know?
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #937  
Old 12-20-2018, 03:47 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 3,158
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by etenguy View Post
Is it not safe for us to conclude Julia was wearing the mackintosh, at least around her shoulders? I suggest this on the basis that her dress was also singed and it would seem reasonable to infer the dress singeing and mackintosh burning was one event. To have both happen independently seems highly unlikely. If this was the case, the murderer could not be using it as protection from blood splattering.

Edit - posted before I saw HS scenario of the burning - though I don't find two accidental burnings in succession very probable.
If the coat was over her shoulders it’s difficult for me to see how it ended up wedged underneath her? Surely it would have simply fallen to the floor? If that was the case why would the killer bother to push it underneath her?
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #938  
Old 12-20-2018, 03:51 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 418
Default

Another thought. The fire in the parlour was not on and there is no evidence it had been on. Is it more likely the clothes burning happened in the kitchen with an open fire?

It doesn't really help as either the disturbed burglar pushed her in the kitchen when he was disturbed causing the burning or Wallace started his attack in the kitchen before finishing the murder In the parlour.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #939  
Old 12-20-2018, 04:23 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 3,158
Default

Another interesting question is why, after he’d discovered the body, did he say to Mrs Johnston “why, whatever was. She doing with her mackintosh and my mackintosh?” Julia was unlikely even to have owned one because William said that he’d never seen her wear a mackintosh.
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #940  
Old 12-20-2018, 06:06 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,239
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by etenguy View Post
Is it not safe for us to conclude Julia was wearing the mackintosh, at least around her shoulders? I suggest this on the basis that her dress was also singed and it would seem reasonable to infer the dress singeing and mackintosh burning was one event. To have both happen independently seems highly unlikely. If this was the case, the murderer could not be using it as protection from blood splattering.

Edit - posted before I saw HS scenario of the burning - though I don't find two accidental burnings in succession very probable.
I agree with this
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.