Any updates, or opinions on this witness.

[Wickerman]

Please tell me you see how hypocritical this is.

we cant describe them as "friends" according to you, because the word friend is never said. But you can call him a client, eventhough that word is never said.
good grief.

Being "in her company", her being a prostitute, is admitting he was a client.
Neither of them alluded to friendship.
Knowing a prostitute for 3 years, and using her services, doesn't suggest friendship.

[Abby Normal]

Being "in her company", her being a prostitute, is admitting he was a client.
Neither of them alluded to friendship.
Knowing a prostitute for 3 years, and using her services, doesn't suggest friendship.

Where does he say he uses her services? Where does he say hes a client?

You see wick what happens when you play these silly word games?

But im not so i can at least admit that they were probably both freinds and clients regardless of whether hutch uses those exact words. The inference in his statement is there for both, regardless if he uses those exact words or implicitly says it.

And please dont tell me you cant both be freinds and a client with someone.

[c.d.]

What their exact relationship was we will probably never know but it is certainly possible for a female prostitute to have a male friend or acquaintance who is not a client.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

What their exact relationship was we will probably never know but it is certainly possible for a female prostitute to have a male friend or acquaintance who is not a client.

c.d.

Thanks CD
And i can also acknowledge that they may have had prostitute client relationship as well.

[Joshua Rogan]

Is there anything in their interaction as described by Hutchinson that indicates whether or not they were friends?

[Abby Normal]

Is there anything in their interaction as described by Hutchinson that indicates whether or not they were friends?

He knew her for several years
She approached him as a freind would... hey hutch can you lend me some money.
The whole story has the tone of they were friends, or friendly.

It sounds as much if not more than just a client relationship thats for sure.

[Joshua Rogan]

He knew her for several years
She approached him as a freind would... hey hutch can you lend me some money.
The whole story has the tone of they were friends, or friendly.

It sounds as much if not more than just a client relationship thats for sure.

Really? I don't think the exchange necessarily precludes a friendship, but I find it hard to detect any sign of one.

If you meet a friend on the street, do you call them by their last name, ask them for money, then leave the moment they say they're broke?

[Abby Normal]

Really? I don't think the exchange necessarily precludes a friendship, but I find it hard to detect any sign of one.

If you meet a friend on the street, do you call them by their last name, ask them for money, then leave the moment they say they're broke?

Adressing someone by there name, whether first or last with no prefix not only shows a less formal greeting, its also not a typical way a prostitute would greet a client. And more importantly, shows she knows him well enough to even know his name!

And Of course ive asked friends for money.

Now leaving the moment he said he had no money may not have been very nice, but that dosnt preclude them from being freinds!
Friends are sometimes not that nice to each other.
But in marys defence we know she had a good heart as she let her desperate friends stay with her, eventhough it caused friction with her boyfriend.

And like i said we can play this game all night long.

Does a poor prostitute normally know the same client for several years.
Does a prostitute usually address a client by there name.
Does a prostitue use the word lend in solicitating business

IMHO mary and hutch client or freinds? either or, probably both, but at very least friends, or at least friendly.

[Wickerman]

What their exact relationship was we will probably never know but it is certainly possible for a female prostitute to have a male friend or acquaintance who is not a client.

c.d.

The claim is not that "it was possible they were friends".

The claim was - "they were friends".

The reason this claim was made is to add a false suspicion for Hutchinson not coming forward. Who would leave it three days if they heard their friend had been murdered?

That is the basis for the claim they were friends.

So, you agree with this then?

[Wickerman]

Hi

To my mind it could just me the writer used a dash instead of a comma. I cannot imagine all those interruptions which you suggest.

Take a look at this. The top left red circle has both a dash " - " and a comma, together.
All the other red circles are commas.



Anything else I can help you with?

Each dash " - " separates a subject.

[harry]

Hutchinson stated he was a resident at the Victoria home.That to me indicates he was not a casual day to day occupant,so having no money that Friday,would not mean him being without a place to sleep.
Where Jon,do you get the Idea that a witness only gives evidence in reply to questions asked? How can the questioner,in respect of Hutchinson's arrival at the police station for example,ask any questions untill Hutchinson states his(Hutchinson's) reason for being there.This is just another example of you writing without thinking.

The statement was,If Hutchinson and Kelly were friends.Would aquaintance suit you better,or is it your view that there were no connection apart from client.

[rjpalmer]

Hi C.D.

Hutchinson did not state the length of time he knew Kelly as a demonstration of their alleged friendship, or a sign of friendly relations, etc., this is a misinterpretation by Abby and others trying ‘fit’ the poor lad up.

You need to read between the lines. Hutchinson was specifically asked by Badham how long he had known Kelly, or knew of her, not as a question of friendship, but for the sole purposes of determining whether or not he would have been able to reliably identify her as the person he had spoken to.

That’s it. Full stop.

ALL the witnesses were asked the same question. And all answered it.

Elizabeth Prater: I have known her since July - since I came to lodge here.

Mary Ann Cox: I have known the deceased for eight or nine months.

Julie Venturney: I have known the person occupying No.13 for about 4 months.

Ditto Hutchinson: he had known her about 3 years.

It is a standard question to determine if the person would even recognize the victim.

I knew one of my ex-bosses for 16 years. He was not a friend.

Similar circumstances about the money. Kelly asked HUTCHINSON for sixpence. This would have struck Badham as odd. Why would a Dorset Street unfortunate randomly ask a man for money? (!!)
Hutchinson’s response---that he occasionally gave her a few shillings--was a way of answering this question; it was not an attempt to demonstrate any intimacy between them. These answers are being misused to show ‘friendship’ when that was not the intention.

Hutch could have given her money for any of a number of different reasons; he was a pushover; he was a client; he bought blackmarket goods that Barnett had ripped off. Who knows? It was the slums. These people lived on a bartering system. Having spent a number of years in contact with what some might consider the ‘dregs of society,’ I can confirm that these sorts are always broke and on the edge of disaster and help each other out with loans. It’s not uncommon among acquaintances or even neighbors. In the slums, one learns to run from the bus stop to the tenement, or else risk getting hit up for money by half a dozen people! Friendship not proven, nor does it particularly matter, because most people below the poverty line always hesitate before getting involved with Johnny Law.

[Wickerman]

Hutchinson stated he was a resident at the Victoria home.

Harry.
Hutchinson was a resident of the Victoria Home on Monday 12. The current address of the witness is written on the police statement.
Surely, we can agree on that.

On Monday he told a lodger "here", what he had seen, the lodger advised him to go to the police station, which he did Monday evening.
So, "here" had to also be the Victoria Home.
Therefore we know for sure he was resident there on Monday.
However, we do not know if he was resident there at any time before that day.
On Tuesday, at the Victoria Home he told a reporter that on the night of the murder the "place where I usually sleep was closed".
Where was that?

If he was resident at the Victoria Home the right phrase would be, "this place was closed", or "here, was closed". That is not what he said.

He told the reporter that, after walking about all night, "I came in when it opened". "Came in", being a reference to where he is right now - the Victoria Home.
This suggests Friday morning (or sometime on Friday) was his first stay at the Victoria Home, which he moved to because last night (Thursday) "the place where I usually slept was closed".
We do not know where the place he usually slept was, he never said.

That to me indicates he was not a casual day to day occupant,so having no money that Friday,would not mean him being without a place to sleep.

The most common place for an out of work labourer to find work on a weekend would be the markets.
So, if thats where he headed, he would have money over that weekend.

Where Jon,do you get the Idea that a witness only gives evidence in reply to questions asked?

A witness does not know what to say until they are asked the question.
It is the interviewer who knows what important questions need to be put to the witness. Some witnesses can sit down and write their own statement, especially in simple cases. In murder cases, even if that was done, the interviewer will still use that hand-written statement to interview the witness.
I suspect you know all this.

How can the questioner,in respect of Hutchinson's arrival at the police station for example,ask any questions untill Hutchinson states his(Hutchinson's) reason for being there.

Why would the process matter?
Wouldn't he walk in and tell the desk sergeant he needs to make a statement. Then tell the sergeant briefly what he saw. The sergeant calls an inspector, who bring him into a room to listen to his story.
They then fill out the forms to make a statement.
That's straight forward enough.
Why do you ask?

[rjpalmer]

"place where I usually sleep was closed".

Wickerman: As far as I can judge, it's an excellent analysis.

But I idly wonder: closed or closed down?

I think the ambiguity would work over here, but I'm not sure if it's a British idiom. It could explain his change of digs, though.

[Wickerman]

"place where I usually sleep was closed".

Wickerman: As far as I can judge, it's an excellent analysis.

But I idly wonder: closed or closed down?

I think the ambiguity would work over here, but I'm not sure if it's a British idiom. It could explain his change of digs, though.

Thanks, RJ.

The Lodging-house Act required they close down for a couple of hours over night to clean the common areas - like kitchens, etc.
If I recall, Donovan in the Chapman case made passing reference to this fact.