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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Shades of Whitechapel

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  #21  
Old 01-07-2019, 01:25 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Both the Ripper and the Torso killer...

-Cut from sternum to groin.

-Take out hearts from victims.

-Take out uteri from victims. In both cases, there are examples of them then discarding the excised uteri.

-Take away the abdominal wall in large flaps from victims.

-Seems to have taken rings from their victims fingers
Over-generalisation. These didn't appear consistently in either series and, where they did feature, there are differences in detail and plausible reasons for what happened that don't remotely require the assumption that it was the same person responsible.
Quote:
-Are referred to as skillful with the knife.
This is another generalisation, in that this did not apply in all cases; indeed, in some instances the opposite opinion was advanced.
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  #22  
Old 01-07-2019, 01:51 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Over-generalisation. These didn't appear consistently in either series and, where they did feature, there are differences in detail and plausible reasons for what happened that don't remotely require the assumption that it was the same person responsible.
This is another generalisation, in that this did not apply in all cases; indeed, in some instances the opposite opinion was advanced.
Yawn. Same-same.

I have pointed out a hundred times by now that we are all very much aware that not all of these inclusions were there in EVERY case. If they HAD been, we would be 101 per cent sure of the same offender - even you, hard as that may be to accept.

I have also said a thousand times that there are differences - we have been over that time and time again. But the similarities are of a character that cannot be hushed down, swept under the carpet or seen as mere flukes. That just does not happen. Not a chance.

This stale, moth-eaten "criticism" of yours cannot take away the similarities, Gareth. It didn't work yesterday, it does not work today, and the future holds bleak prospects for anybody buying into the idea of forgetting extremely peculiar similarities if they are not present in all cases. I never say that they did, for that matter. I say that both killers took away abdominal walls in large flaps. And both killers DID precisely that. It is on record. It is a historical truth. Don't deny it! Don't try to hide it away! Don't claim that is is not "significant". It IS significant, totally so.

You say that we should not take note of these things, since they only occurred in some of the cases. In your world, that equates that it never happened at all.

Is that a wise thing to claim? Really? Or is it an effort to nullify crucial evidence in order to make the notion of a common killer go away?

We know the answer to that one, don't we?

PS. At the end of the day, what I did was to compare the viability of Colins suggestion to the viability of the suggestion of a shared identity between the Ripper and the Torso killer - and I think we can all see the outcome of that comparison...

Last edited by Fisherman : 01-07-2019 at 02:00 AM.
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  #23  
Old 01-07-2019, 02:30 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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To facilitate understanding this issue, let's look at what peculiarities will introduce into murder inquiries.

Let's assume that we have two murder series, both of them involving five cases each and both perpetrated in locations and time frames that allow for the possibility of a common originator.

In the first series, we have five men killed by gunfire.

In the second series, we have five women killed by strangling.

There is reason to assume that there were different originators on account of these differences: Different gender on the victims, different ways of dispatching them.

Now, let's introduce the suggestion that in each series there were one (1) victim who had either:

1. All of the finger nails torn out

or

2. A thumb sawed off

or

3. A stone shoved into the anus

or

4. The hair cut off

or

5. The bones of a hand crushed by a blunt object

or anything along these lines: distinct, peculiar matters.

What would that do to the investigation?

What would the police say?

"It seems these cases are connected, strangely enough"

or

"It only happened in one case each, so it does not count"

Which is the likelier outcome? Anyone?

And what if we change the rules? What if we say that both series were ones where five prostituted women were killed, by way of knife violence?

Well, if that knife violence looked anything the same, I´d suggest that there would not be any need for pulled out nails, sawed off thumbs, stones shoved into anuses, hair cut off or bones crushed in a hand in order to make the police simply accept that the killer WAS the same man!

And what do we have in the Ripper series and the Torso ditto? Correct, we examples of have two men cutting the abdomen from chest to groin in BOTH series, we have examples of cutting work that medicos deem skilled, we have hearts taken away in both series, we have uteri taken away in both series, we have abdominal walls taken away in both series, we have rings then away in both series, we have prostituted victims in both series.

But now, this is not enough? Instead we can be almost certain that there were two killers, on account of how the victims in one of the series were dismembered? That makes the similarities magically go away?

I really don't think so. The old misconceptions can be thrown overboard now, and it is not a day too soon.
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  #24  
Old 01-07-2019, 03:26 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Admittedly, the overlap between series in 1888 and 1889 are curiosities that would support the hypothesis of a shared identity. If we include the 'Battersea Mystery', however, it loses some significance. The torso series potentially spanned from 1873 to 1889 - and beyond. There's the Lambeth case in 1902 and maybe more. For a killer who spaced his murders out for years at a time across London and took pains to conceal his victim's identities, what drove him to deviate from his previous MO and blitz five prostitutes within a few months in the same square mile of the East End? Was there some emotional or psychological trigger that caused this aberration in the Torso Man, or was it simply because they were not the same killer?
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  #25  
Old 01-07-2019, 03:38 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Admittedly, the overlap between series in 1888 and 1889 are curiosities that would support the hypothesis of a shared identity. If we include the 'Battersea Mystery', however, it loses some significance. The torso series potentially spanned from 1873 to 1889 - and beyond. There's the Lambeth case in 1902 and maybe more. For a killer who spaced his murders out for years at a time across London and took pains to conceal his victim's identities, what drove him to deviate from his previous MO and blitz five prostitutes within a few months in the same square mile of the East End? Was there some emotional or psychological trigger that caused this aberration in the Torso Man, or was it simply because they were not the same killer?
I would personally object to the idea that the Torso killer "took pains to conceal his victims identities", Harry. He cut a face away that was found and could be used for identification purposes - cutting it up in small pieces would have prevented that possibility. He left identifying clothing on Jackson. He did not take away marks that were specific on bodies. He seems to have wanted the bodies and parts found, placing one of his torsos in the Scotland Yard building, throwing parts in Battersea Park flowerbeds, throwing a leg into Percy Bysshe Shelleys home and so on. It seems to me that he was eager to have the victims found.

This aside, it of course calls for an explanation when we have five murders in ten weeks where he killed in the open streets - than can never be said to have been an expected development.
My take on things is that we must work from a point of accepting a shared identity on account of the many odd similarities and the rarity of this kind of deeds. To me, we don't need to explain away these similarities - we need to explain the dissimilarities instead. I am convinced the explanation is there - but can we find it?
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  #26  
Old 01-07-2019, 03:53 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
For a killer who spaced his murders out for years at a time across London and took pains to conceal his victim's identities, what drove him to deviate from his previous MO and blitz five prostitutes within a few months in the same square mile of the East End?
Indeed and, had he been more successful in finding suitable opportunities to kill, I daresay we'd have seen rather more than five "blitzed" victims during that short period. Even as things stand, it sure looks like the Ripper had a greedy demon to feed, an appetite seemingly absent from the torso cases.
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  #27  
Old 01-07-2019, 04:04 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Indeed and, had he been more successful in finding suitable opportunities to kill, I daresay we'd have seen rather more than five "blitzed" victims during that short period. Even as things stand, it sure looks like the Ripper had a greedy demon to feed, an appetite seemingly absent from the torso cases.
"It looks like". "Seemingly absent".

The whole point is that when we drop the preconceived notions and look at what we KNOW instead of that we think we can conclude, a different picture emerges.
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  #28  
Old 01-07-2019, 07:51 AM
Mayerling Mayerling is offline
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I have decided to add some pictures of Eyraud, Bompard, the trunk, and illustrations of Gouffe's murder in Paris. He had been invited for an evening with the gamin like Gabrielle Bompard, and when she playfully started undressing she took her corset off, and playfully put it around Gouffe's throat. He was standing with is back to a curtain (behind which was Eyraud) and Bompard quietly (while embracing Gouffe) was hooking the back of her corset to a rope connected over a pully to the rest of the rope held by Eyraud, who pulled and slowly hanged Gouffe. Whether this actually strangled the victim to death is still debated, because after lowering Gouffe's body to the ground Eyraud strangled him manually a second time. But the one who stated this was Gabrielle, and she did so at their joint trial, at which each tried to put the real blame on the other (both were probably equally guilty, but Gabrielle got a long prison sentence, and Eyraud went to the guilloutine).


This is Michel Eyraud, the man who was behind the purchase of the trunk and the killing of Gouffe:




This is Gabrielle Bompard, the bait to catch Gouffe.:





I can't seem to get the pictures up. Sorry.

Last edited by Mayerling : 01-07-2019 at 08:11 AM. Reason: Trying to add illustrations.
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  #29  
Old 01-07-2019, 08:50 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Does anyone have any thoughts on Michel Eyraud as a possible candidate to be the Torso Killer? He was convicted of the August 1889 murder of Toussaint-Augsent Gouffe whose dismembered body was found in a canvas bag near a river in Lyon after having previously placed in a trunk. The trunk in question was purchased by Eyraud at a shop on the Euston Road in London in the preceding June. As Eyraud was known to travel extensively I'm wondering why this purchase of a new trunk was necessary. Was it because a previous trunk had been put to the same use? Purely speculative of course - but I do wonder as the MO fits.Not sure if the dates fit?
hi Bridewell
interesting. but The victim was a man. so not the torso killer.
also-motive appeared for monetary gain, its in france and two people involved and the dismemberment was only for ease in disposal.
not the torso killer.
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  #30  
Old 01-07-2019, 09:11 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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From the Eyraud wiki:

He noted in his autopsy report that the naked body was bound with seven meters of rope, the head was enveloped in a black oilskin cloth and that the victim had obviously died by strangulation three to five weeks before.


In the four cases attributed to the Thames Torso killer [1887-1889], the head was removed, never to be found. I have to say, though, if we include the 1884 Tottenham Court case in the mix, the head was recovered in that case.

Last edited by jerryd : 01-07-2019 at 09:14 AM.
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