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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Shades of Whitechapel

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  #11  
Old 01-05-2019, 01:40 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Where were Eyraud and Bompard in September 1889? If they'd left France, as seems likely, who's to say they weren't in London?
Was Gouffé in London at the same time? I ask, because the Eyraud/Bompard murder seems to be focused on him specifically, and see no reason to suspect that Eyraud had a thing for dismembering random women, or random men for that matter.
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  #12  
Old 01-05-2019, 02:11 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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They left France probably sometime in August 1889 around the time that the Lyon body was discovered. Difficult to get to the US from France without either visiting or at least passing the UK. Will check Ancestry to see if I can find them on any passenger lists around that time. As you've pointed out, torso killings are very rare - and Eyraud and Bompard were torso killers.
The term torso killer is perhaps best reserved for The Thames Torso killer. Eyraud was a one-off dismemberer as far as we know. And he did what most dismembering killers do - they do away with somebody that is known to them. Which incidentally was a MAN.

The first litmus test for the Torso killer lies in the quality of the cutting work. Was Eyrauds victim skillfully cut up? Were the limbs disjointed? Were the parts distributed in public places for all to see?

Once you cleared those hurdles, we can move on to the evisceration parts.

I find it absolutely amazing that you can put Eyraud forward as a likely Pinchin Street killer while denying the similarities between the Rippers deeds and those of the Torso series! I mean ... wow!!

Last edited by Fisherman : 01-05-2019 at 02:15 PM.
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  #13  
Old 01-06-2019, 12:07 AM
Mayerling Mayerling is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
The term torso killer is perhaps best reserved for The Thames Torso killer. Eyraud was a one-off dismemberer as far as we know. And he did what most dismembering killers do - they do away with somebody that is known to them. Which incidentally was a MAN.

The first litmus test for the Torso killer lies in the quality of the cutting work. Was Eyrauds victim skillfully cut up? Were the limbs disjointed? Were the parts distributed in public places for all to see?

Once you cleared those hurdles, we can move on to the evisceration parts.

I find it absolutely amazing that you can put Eyraud forward as a likely Pinchin Street killer while denying the similarities between the Rippers deeds and those of the Torso series! I mean ... wow!!
Actually the Eyraud-Bompard Case is fairly well written up in books on the development of forensic science like Jurgen Thorwald's "Century of the Detective". It involved problems in identifying the corpse of Gouffe (found in a state of advanced decay). The forensics were done by Professor Alexander Lascange (sorry my spelling) who does appear on this website on other threads.

There was a recent full size study of the case, that concentrates on the issue of hypnotism (used as a defense in the trial by Bompard - claiming her behavior in the murder was that of a "Trilby" at the hands of her "Svengali" Eyraud. However there is plenty in the book (I will give you the title when I locate my copy) about the finding of the corpse in the trunk and it's slow identification.


Jeff

Postscript: The recent book is by Steven Livengston: "Little Demon in the City of Light". I've read this book, and it is quite good.

Jeff

Last edited by Mayerling : 01-06-2019 at 12:14 AM.
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  #14  
Old 01-06-2019, 05:50 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Actually the Eyraud-Bompard Case is fairly well written up in books on the development of forensic science like Jurgen Thorwald's "Century of the Detective". It involved problems in identifying the corpse of Gouffe (found in a state of advanced decay). The forensics were done by Professor Alexander Lascange (sorry my spelling) who does appear on this website on other threads.

There was a recent full size study of the case, that concentrates on the issue of hypnotism (used as a defense in the trial by Bompard - claiming her behavior in the murder was that of a "Trilby" at the hands of her "Svengali" Eyraud. However there is plenty in the book (I will give you the title when I locate my copy) about the finding of the corpse in the trunk and it's slow identification.


Jeff

Postscript: The recent book is by Steven Livengston: "Little Demon in the City of Light". I've read this book, and it is quite good.

Jeff
Many thanks, Jeff - the case was new to me. My main interest lies in the quality and character of the cutting, so whatever information there is on that part is much welcomed.
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  #15  
Old 01-06-2019, 12:38 PM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
The term torso killer is perhaps best reserved for The Thames Torso killer. Eyraud was a one-off dismemberer as far as we know. And he did what most dismembering killers do - they do away with somebody that is known to them. Which incidentally was a MAN.

The first litmus test for the Torso killer lies in the quality of the cutting work. Was Eyrauds victim skillfully cut up? Were the limbs disjointed? Were the parts distributed in public places for all to see?

Once you cleared those hurdles, we can move on to the evisceration parts.

I find it absolutely amazing that you can put Eyraud forward as a likely Pinchin Street killer while denying the similarities between the Rippers deeds and those of the Torso series! I mean ... wow!!
Why not put Eyraud forward as a likely Pinchin Street killer he's a much more likely suspect than Lechmere. There are very few similarities between the Ripper and the Torso Killer they are clearly two separate killers.
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  #16  
Old 01-06-2019, 02:03 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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I find it absolutely amazing that you can put Eyraud forward as a likely Pinchin Street killer while denying the similarities between the Rippers deeds and those of the Torso series! I mean ... wow!!
I seem to have touched a nerve. Why do you view every suggestion by anyone else, even about a non JtR killing, as an attack on your Lechmere theory? Are you now claiming that Lechmere was both JtR and the Thames torso killer?

As it happens I'm not aware that I've ever denied any similarities between the two although, now you come to mention it, I don't really see any. And you're seeking to compare and contrast the specific wounds known to have been inflicted by Eyraud with those inflicted by the killer of the Pinchin Street victim? I put Eyraud forward as a possible Pinchin Street killer because he was in London in 1889 and, as a matter of historical record, was someone known to have dismembered the body of a murder victim. Eyraud is a convicted murderer - not a claim you can make for Lechmere (who - correct me please if I'm wrong - was never convicted of anything).
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Last edited by Bridewell : 01-06-2019 at 02:31 PM.
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  #17  
Old 01-06-2019, 02:49 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Are you now claiming that Lechmere was both JtR and the Thames torso killer?
I'm afraid he does.
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  #18  
Old 01-06-2019, 03:17 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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I'm afraid he does.
Thanks. That explains everything. I've obviously been away too long!
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  #19  
Old 01-06-2019, 11:38 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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I seem to have touched a nerve. Why do you view every suggestion by anyone else, even about a non JtR killing, as an attack on your Lechmere theory? Are you now claiming that Lechmere was both JtR and the Thames torso killer?

As it happens I'm not aware that I've ever denied any similarities between the two although, now you come to mention it, I don't really see any. And you're seeking to compare and contrast the specific wounds known to have been inflicted by Eyraud with those inflicted by the killer of the Pinchin Street victim? I put Eyraud forward as a possible Pinchin Street killer because he was in London in 1889 and, as a matter of historical record, was someone known to have dismembered the body of a murder victim. Eyraud is a convicted murderer - not a claim you can make for Lechmere (who - correct me please if I'm wrong - was never convicted of anything).
Why do you think I view your musings about Eyraud as an attack on the Lechmere theory? I know I don't.
What I am saying is that suggesting that Eyraud was responsible for the Pinchin Street deed (or any other Thames torso deed) is diluted into thin air if the suggestion comes from somebody who dismisses the idea of a common originator of the Ripper and the Thames torso series. The reason being that if one refuses to acknowledge the similarities in these two series, one is not fit to plead in the first case. After that, if one acknowledges dismemberment (regardless how that dismemberment looks) as an indicator of a link to the Thames torso murders after having failed to acknowledge a link between dismemberment cases involving multiple common peculiarities, then one has sold out all credibility.

You seemingly take pride in stating that you cannot see any similarities inbetween the Ripper series and the Thames torso ditto. And equally you take pride in having produced a case of a killer dismembering a person he was acquainted to, who was not of the same gender as the Thames torso victims, whose parts were not distributed and where no ripping or organ extraction's recorded. Plus you fail to see the relevance of comparing the cutting work done on the victim to the cutting done in the torso series, a type of cutting that left Hebbert in little or no doubt of a common originator.
That is what your naming Eyraud as a likely Pinchin Street killer has contributed, and it is not half bad in a sense - it is a textbook example of how not so solve murder cases.

And look: this all doesn't even touch on Lechmere!
Peddling the idea that any criticism I have to offer will always be linked to the carman is not only untrue, but also plain dumb.

Am I saying this because you have "touched on a nerve"? I really don't think so.
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Old 01-06-2019, 11:56 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Thanks. That explains everything. I've obviously been away too long!
Yes indeed: I DO suggest that Charles Lechmere is the prime suspect in both these cases, and I do so based on the case evidence, where there are numerous similarities between the series and where Lechmere is linked to the Ripper series (its not a case of "why would we not suggest that he may just have been in London at the time", à la Eyraud).
That is how these matters are assessed; one looks for similarities. The more there are of them, the likelier a connection becomes. And when there are enough of these similarities and/or they are very odd and peculiar, then we can conclude beyond reasonable doubt that there was a common originator. That is how it works.

And you approve of this very much! This I conclude from how you state that Eyraud is a likely Pinchin Street killer. All it took for you to do so was that we know that Eyraud dismembered a victim. There are no other similarities at all recorded. Not a single one. Nothing, nada, zilch, rien, keines, inget.

Let´s compare our two pleads, shall we!

Thames Torso killer:

Kills women, the only identified one was a prostitute, wherefore it is likely that the victims were not previously acquainted to the killer.

Cuts with very much precision. Disjoints like a professional.

Scatters the parts all over London.

Kills multiple victims.

Is an aggressive dismemberer.

Eyraud:

Kills one man, to whom he is acquainted (dismemberment murders are typically murders of aquaintances)

We have no record (so far) of whether he was a skilled cutter, or whether he knew how to disjoint.

Does not distribute the parts, puts them in a trunk.

Kills one victim only (as far as we know)

Is probably not an aggressive dismemberer.

Conclusion: There are no similarities but for the dismemberment factor.

The Ripper:

Kills women, all of whom were seemingly prostitutes and seemingly unaquainted to the killer.

Kills multiple victims.

Further points of similarity:

Both the Ripper and the Torso killer...

-Cut from sternum to groin.

-Take out hearts from victims.

-Take out uteri from victims. In both cases, there are examples of them then discarding the excised uteri.

-Take away the abdominal wall in large flaps from victims.

-Are referred to as skillful with the knife.

-Seems to have taken rings from their victims fingers.

So there we are, Colin. That is a totally revealing compilation showing us what kind of demands YOU make before making a call of a possible/probable common originator of two murder cases, compared to the demands I make before I make MY call.

Can you see how we differ?

And of course, the only reason I am saying this is because you have "touched a nerve", and because I cannot abide by any criticism of the Lechmere theory. Of course!

It certainly has nothing at all to do with how I think your suggestion is baseless drivel. It´s of course instead all about my nerves.

Last edited by Fisherman : 01-07-2019 at 12:18 AM.
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