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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Letters and Communications > Goulston Street Graffito

View Poll Results: Did Jack write the GSG?
YES 78 39.39%
NO 120 60.61%
Voters: 198. You may not vote on this poll

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  #2211  
Old 09-26-2017, 01:11 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
......Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
I still remain unconvinced the killer wrote the GSG.

That does not mean I rule it out, just that I see no overwhelming evidence for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
That's pretty much my position, too, Steve.
Well, I guess that makes three of us.

I don't think there's a whole lot to be said for the subject thread, you either think he did, or you don't.
There's nothing new to discuss on the matter, not enough to keep a thread alive.
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  #2212  
Old 09-26-2017, 01:17 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post

Nicely countered Steve.
Mr Marriott could learn a great deal from these exchanges if he were not so blind to the helpful opinions of others.
Thank you Jon.


Steve
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  #2213  
Old 09-26-2017, 01:24 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Well, I guess that makes three of us.

I don't think there's a whole lot to be said for the subject thread, you either think he did, or you don't.
There's nothing new to discuss on the matter, not enough to keep a thread alive.
But we are 222 pages in!

Clearly there is no definitive evidence either way, so we should all probably say on the basis of what we know I think it is probable he did(n't).

What I find interesting are the reasons people lean one way rather than the other.

I think it is slightly more probable that he did rather than he didn't, largely because the time difference makes me think he came back specifically to leave an authenticated message. Of course, PC Long may simply have missed it on his previous patrol round, but he seemed clear that it was not there earlier. Also, PC Halse stated the writing looked fresh.

Last edited by etenguy : 09-26-2017 at 01:29 PM.
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  #2214  
Old 09-26-2017, 01:25 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Well, I guess that makes three of us.

I don't think there's a whole lot to be said for the subject thread, you either think he did, or you don't.
There's nothing new to discuss on the matter, not enough to keep a thread alive.
We need some new information I feel to advance and possibly change people's views.

It will be interesting when Adam's Swanson book comes out if it is touched on at all.

And when Pierre gives his report we MAY have some new details to asses, but I agree until we get something new the thread is going nowhere.

Steve
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  #2215  
Old 09-26-2017, 01:47 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
We need some new information I feel to advance and possibly change people's views.

It will be interesting when Adam's Swanson book comes out if it is touched on at all.

And when Pierre gives his report we MAY have some new details to asses, but I agree until we get something new the thread is going nowhere.

Steve
Pierre's report?
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  #2216  
Old 09-26-2017, 01:56 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by harry View Post
I obviously have been reading the papers,plus many other sources of information.In addition ivé read overseas papers,and one thing is obvious,they could not all have had reporters at the inquest.In fact,only if one could prove a certain reporter from a particular paper was present,could one speak from a position of certainty when quoting papers.....
So you want to know a specific reporter was present before you will accept press coverage of the inquest?

Were you aware that there is no mention in the court record of sending PC Long to get his pocketbook. We only know of that, and what was subsequently deduced from this, from the press coverage.

Let me just give you an example of why the press coverage is so beneficial.
The first paragraph below in italics, is a direct quote from the Court Record (CLRO).
Call it the official version if you like....

(CLRO) By Mr Crawford The words that were written on the wall – The Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing – I copied the words from the wall into my report – I could not say whether they were recently written – I wrote down into my book and the Inspector noticed that Jews was spelt Juews – There was a difference between the spelling

What follows is the equivalent section as reported by the Daily Telegraph (DT), then the Times (T), then the Daily News (DN), followed by the Morning Advertiser (MA), and the Morning Post (MP), and the Standard (STD).
As you can see, their coverage is quite lengthy when compared to the Court version.
The Court version is the least reliable from the point of view of complete coverage. This is not an isolated case, the press coverage is by far more detailed than either of the two Court records (Eddowes, Kelly) that have survived.


(DT) Mr. Crawford: As to the writing on the wall, have you not put a "not" in the wrong place? Were not the words, "The Jews are not the men that will be blamed for nothing"? - I believe the words were as I have stated.
[Coroner] Was not the word "Jews" spelt "Juwes?" - It may have been.
[Coroner] Yet you did not tell us that in the first place.
Did you make an entry of the words at the time? - Yes, in my pocket-book. Is it possible that you have put the "not" in the wrong place? - It is possible, but I do not think that I have.
[Coroner] Which did you notice first - the piece of apron or the writing on the wall? - The piece of apron, one corner of which was wet with blood.
[Coroner] How came you to observe the writing on the wall? - I saw it while trying to discover whether there were any marks of blood about.
[Coroner] Did the writing appear to have been recently done? - I could not form an opinion.
[Coroner] Do I understand that you made a search in the model dwelling-house? - I went into the staircases.
[Coroner] Did you not make inquiries in the house itself? - No.
The Foreman: Where is the pocket-book in which you made the entry of the writing? - At Westminster.
[Coroner] Is it possible to get it at once? - I dare say.
Mr. Crawford: I will ask the coroner to direct that the book be fetched.
The Coroner: Let that be done.
At this point Constable Long returned, and produced the pocket-book containing the entry which he made at the time concerning the discovery of the writing on the wall.
Mr. Crawford: What is the entry? - Witness: The words are, "The Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing." [Coroner] Both here and in your inspector's report the word "Jews" is spelt correctly? - Yes; but the inspector remarked that the word was spelt "Juwes."
[Coroner] Why did you write "Jews" then? - I made my entry before the inspector made the remark.
[Coroner] But why did the inspector write "Jews"? - I cannot say.
[Coroner] At all events, there is a discrepancy? - It would seem so.



(T) By Mr. Crawford. - Witness repeated as before the words which he saw written on the wall.
Mr. Crawford. - Have you not put the word "not" in the wrong place? Is it not, "The Jews are not the men that will be blamed for nothing"? Witness repeated the words as he had previously read them.
Mr. Crawford. - How do you spell "Jews"? Witness. - J-e-w-s.
Mr. Crawford. - Now, was it not on the wall J-u-w-e-s? Is it not possible you are wrong? - It may be as to the spelling?
Mr. Crawford. - And as to the place where the word "not" was put? Witness again read the words as before.
By Mr. Crawford. - He had not noticed the wall before. He noticed the piece of apron first, and then the words on the wall. One corner of the apron was wet with blood. His light was on at the time. His attention was attracted to the writing on the wall while he was searching. He could not form an opinion as to whether the writing was recent.
He went on to the staircase of the dwelling, but made no inquires in the house itself.
By a juryman. - The pocket-book in which he entered the words written on the wall at the time he noticed them was at Westminster.
The witness's examination was postponed, and the pocket-book was ordered to be produced.

The witness Long having returned with the pocket-book referred to, stated, in reply to Mr. Crawford, that the book contained the entry which he made at the time as to the words written on the wall. They were, "The Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing." The inspector made the remark that on the wall the word was "Jeuws." Witness entered in his book what he believed was an exact copy of the words.
Mr. Crawford. - At all events there was a discrepancy between what you wrote down and what was actually written on the wall, so far as regards the spelling of the word "Jews." Witness replied that the only remark the inspector made was as to the spelling of the word "Jews."



(DN) Mr. Crawford - I want you to repeat the words on the wall. Have you not put the words in the wrong place? Was it not "The Jews are not the men that will be blamed for nothing"? - "The Jews are not the men that will be blamed for nothing."
You did not copy from the wall? - Yes, I copied from the wall into my pocket book.
How have you spelt the word "Jews"? - J-e-w-s.
Is it not possible it was "juwees"? - It is possible I might have written it wrongly.
Were not the words "The juwees are not the men that will be blamed for nothing?" - "The Jews are not the men that will be blamed for nothing."
Which did you see first, the piece of apron or the words on the wall? - The apron.
What called your attention to the writing on the wall? - From searching to see of there were any marks of blood.
And it appeared to have been recently written? - That I could not form an opinion upon. I did not go into the dwelling house, but simply up the staircase.
You made no inquiry in the dwelling house itself? - No.
On the return of Long he was further examined by Mr. Crawford - Have you got your book? - Yes.
Does it contain the entry you made at the time from the writing on the wall? - Yes. "The Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing."
I see you use the word "Jews"? - Yes, but the inspector remarked that the word was "Juwees."
Why did you write J-e-w-s? - This was before the inspector made the remark.
At all events there was a discrepancy between you and what the inspector thought the word was? - Yes.
That was the only mistake the inspector pointed out? - Yes.



(MA) Mr. Crawford - Was not what was written above the apron "The Jews are not the men that will be blamed for nothing?" - The words were as I have stated.
Is it not possible you put the "not" in the wrong place? - I believe the words were as I have stated.
Was the word spelt, not "Jews" but "Juwes"? - It may have been.
What called your attention to the writing on the wall? - On searching for marks of blood.
Did it appear to have been recently written? - That I could not say.
Did you make any inquiries in the dwelling house itself? - No.
Police constable Long, recalled, produced the book in which he made his entry of the writing on the wall, from which it appeared the words of the entry were, "The Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing." In answer to Mr. Crawford, he said the inspector who took down the words had made the remark that the word Jews was spelt Juews - not Juwes. That was the only mistake the inspector pointed out.



(MP) Mr. Crawford – Were not the words, “Juews are not the men that will be blamed for nothing?”
The Witness – I may be wrong about the spelling, but the words are as I have given them. After further questioning the witness was sent to fetch the pocket-book into which he originally copied the sentence.
Police-constable Long now produced his pocket-book, containing the entry of the writing on the wall made at the time of its discovery. The words were the same as previously given by the witness, but he now added that the Inspector pointed out at the time that “Jews” was spelt “Juews.”



(STD) Mr. Crawford - Was not what was written above the apron "The Jews are not the men that will be blamed for nothing?" - The words were as I have stated.
Is it not possible you put the "not" in the wrong place? - I believe the words were as I have stated.
Was the word spelt, not "Jews" but "Juwes"? - It may have been.
What called your attention to the writing on the wall? - On searching for marks of blood.
Did it appear to have been recently written? - That I could not say.
Did you make any inquiries in the dwelling house itself? - No.
Police-constable Long, recalled, produced the book in which he made his entry of the writing on the wall, from which it appeared the words of the entry were, "The Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing." In answer to Mr. Crawford, he said the inspector who took down the words had made the remark that the word Jews was spelt Juews - not Juwes. That was the only mistake the inspector put out.

* * * * * * * * * *
Does any of the press coverage look 'invented' to you?
Do you think there was a broad conspiracy to manufacture witness testimony?
Do you think it's possible all these media outlets "got it wrong", collectively?
I remember having similar debates over the extra detail the press provided of Sarah Lewis's testimony and how "well, the press HAVE to be wrong because the Court version is the true version", and similar ridiculous comments like that - not from you, I might add, I think you know who I am talking about. But the subject was the same.
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  #2217  
Old 09-26-2017, 02:01 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by etenguy View Post
Pierre's report?
He tells us there will be one.
Call me unendingly optimistic.

Steve
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  #2218  
Old 09-26-2017, 02:09 PM
Henry Flower Henry Flower is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
He tells us there will be one.
Call me unendingly optimistic.

Steve
I have a slightly different phrase for that condition, Steve
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  #2219  
Old 09-26-2017, 02:10 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by etenguy View Post
But we are 222 pages in!
Yes, but how many posts deal with the subject of the thread?, and how many posts repeat the same opinions, and same arguments, over and over again?
There's only so much we can say about whether we think he wrote it or not.

I guess I'm just being a party-pooper
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  #2220  
Old 09-26-2017, 02:17 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Yes, but how many posts deal with the subject of the thread?, and how many posts repeat the same opinions, and same arguments, over and over again?
There's only so much we can say about whether we think he wrote it or not.

I guess I'm just being a party-pooper
Point taken - maybe Pierre's report will shed some new light on the subject.
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