Stephenson AS a Suspect

[Tom_Wescott]

If Harris did not invent this "faked neurasthenia" claim, pray tell who would have?

I'll admit it's been a while since I've read any of Harris' books, but did he not make clear that he was theorizing that D'Onston faked his illness? I don't believe he ever made the 'claim' that this was an established fact. All of us theorize, that's part and parcel of Ripperology. All I was saying with my first post on this thread (which, by the way, was not pointed at anyone) is this: If hard research done by yourself, or Spiro, or Mike Covell, has turned up real evidence D'Onston could not have left the hospital during his stay, then that's a fine achievement. But it doesn't make Harris fraudulent or insincere...merely wrong. Having said all that, I pretty well agree with everything you had to say in your post, and thank you for replying to me.

Any more questions or "issues" Tom? I'm always glad to help out.

Issues? What "issues"? Let it go, my man. No, no more questions right now. I'm waiting for the book/essay.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Howard Brown]

All we needed to know was the basis for the faked neurasthenia claim...which I have provided...thank you very much....and Mike Covell's hands-on investigatin' down yonder in the Big Smoke.--How

No, I think you've provided your interpretation of the basis for the faked neuastensia, one that might well be agreed upon by most people, but it is still just an opinion at this time.-Ally

Ally:

Fact: There cannot be a claim for faked neurasthenia made by someone from "our time" regarding RDS. Whether RDS did or didn't fake it cannot be ascertained. What other explanation can there be for inferring Stephenson faked his neurasthenia, than the one I gave, since Mr. Harris first contended that RDS went into the LH after the Kelly murder?

Fact: Mr. Harris knew that he could not make a valid claim that D'onston "faked" neurasthenia and had to invent this concept in order for him to appear healthy enough to commit the murders. Therefore,on that level, Mr. Harris created a false means for these crimes. Mike Covell doused the opportunity. There never was a motive.

Fact: You can sit there until your pretty brown eyes turn blue and believe it ain't so, but you can't honestly believe that Mr.Harris didn't know this stuff before. Give it a name.

Tom:

I am gonna begin the book real soon. Take care.

[Ally]

Ally:

Fact: There cannot be a claim for faked neurasthenia made by someone from "our time" regarding RDS.

Sure there can. As evidenced by the FACT that you are claiming that's what harris did. Perhaps you meant there cannot be a leigitimate claim or a valid claim, but there can definitely be a claim as has been proven by there being a claim.

Fact: Mr. Harris knew that he could not make a valid claim that D'onston "faked" neurasthenia and had to invent this concept in order for him to appear healthy enough to commit the murders. Therefore,on that level, Mr. Harris created a false means for these crimes. Mike Covell doused the opportunity. There never was a motive.

I am not even sure that was English. Every part of every sentence contradicted something that came before or after it. Mr. Harris created "a false means"? First of all I do not even believe that real neurasthenia would prevent D'onston from having the "means" to commit the crime. As there is no record, there is absolutely no indication of how severely debilitating his condition would have been. Oh gee, he's fatigued and gots a headache! However can he go out and kill women. Because one must be perfectly healthy to be a killer? I think not. So if Harris believed that it was faked, that's fine, but it wasn't a necessity to be faked to have still had it and had "the means". Covell hasn't "doused the opportunity". Going out past a gate is sooo difficult. Not. You slip the watchman a few bucks and stroll out for your bit of something and stroll back in.

Fact: You can sit there until your pretty brown eyes turn blue and believe it ain't so, but you can't honestly believe that Mr.Harris didn't know this stuff before. Give it a name.

My eyes are already blue. But as that has nothing much to do with anything, I'll let the rest slide.

[Howard Brown]

Fact: There cannot be a claim for faked neurasthenia made by someone from "our time" regarding RDS. Sure there can. As evidenced by the FACT that you are claiming that's what harris did. Perhaps you meant there cannot be a leigitimate claim or a valid claim, but there can definitely be a claim as has been proven by there being a claim.

Thats right,dear. No one can legitimately claim that RDS or any other patient faked a complaint without some basis for it.
*******************************

Fact: Mr. Harris knew that he could not make a valid claim that D'onston "faked" neurasthenia and had to invent this concept in order for him to appear healthy enough to commit the murders. Therefore,on that level, Mr. Harris created a false means for these crimes. Mike Covell doused the opportunity. There never was a motive. I am not even sure that was English. Every part of every sentence contradicted something that came before or after it. Mr. Harris created "a false means"? First of all I do not even believe that real neurasthenia would prevent D'onston from having the "means" to commit the crime. As there is no record, there is absolutely no indication of how severely debilitating his condition would have been. Oh gee, he's fatigued and gots a headache! However can he go out and kill women. Because one must be perfectly healthy to be a killer? I think not. So if Harris believed that it was faked, that's fine, but it wasn't a necessity to be faked to have still had it and had "the means". Covell hasn't "doused the opportunity". Going out past a gate is sooo difficult. Not. You slip the watchman a few bucks and stroll out for your bit of something and stroll back in.

Yeah, it was English and it doesn't contradict itself. Harris cannot make a valid claim that RDS faked his complaint because he was not the attending physician.

Therefore, he had to invent the notion or concept that Stephenson was faking it in order for him to appear as if he had a reason for entering the Hospital other than the neurasthenic condition.

This condition of neurasthenia wouldn't incapacitate anyone if they really wished to commit murder, thats not the issue.What Harris is saying is that he was healthy enough to commit the murders,even though he was ostensibly in the LH for an ailment. Point to you,eyes of blue.

The opportunity of him theoretically being the Ripper is dependent on him pulling an insy-outsy and once again,assuming he slipped someone a few shillings to traipse out of the hospital grounds. This was not permitted.

Another factor in this saga,Ally, is that it is very likely that Stephenson was broke...flat broke...at the time. Unless the watchman took I.O.U's and a hearty handclasp, he didn't get out at night.

Stephenson profitted from the murders,because they gave him an opportunity to find a place to stay in December based on the moolah he recieved from Stead for his article on December 1st in the PMG.

Back to you...and thanks for debating this.

[jmenges]

As there is no record, there is absolutely no indication of how severely debilitating his condition would have been. Oh gee, he's fatigued and gots a headache!

Sorry to interrupt, but did not RDS's length of stay at the London Hospital speak to the severity of his condition? I believe since he exceeded the average, or typically allowed, length of stay it argues against him faking it or his illness being of a minor case.



JM

[Mike Covell]

The yearbooks at the hospital state that for financial purposes every patient is to be assessed every couple of weeks, to decide wether they are genuine, on the mend or faking!
Those on the mend would be sent to convalescent homes, the yearbooks have a list of these.
Those that are faking it would be sent away, and those that are genuine would be allowed to stay on for treatment.

We must remember that Hospitals back then did not rely on state handouts as they do in the UK today, instead they rely on donations.

The cost of a bed, linen, food, care and heating was also an issue in deciding who stayed and who went.

If RDS was allowed to stay for such a long time I would think those who cared for him genuinly thought he was ill.

Now the whole issue of slipping money to the watchmen, to get out.
This must be after he evades other patients and staff on the ward, passes down the stairs unseen, out of the building which may well have been locked to the lodge.

This poses several problems,
1, The Patients would see their neighbour going out, possibly even alerting the staff.
2, The staff would see that he was well enough to leave, turf him out and give the bed to someone more deserving.
3, The night watchmen would surely get suspicious and turn to the authorities.

If you suggest that the watchmen was making "a couple of bucks" off RDS everythime he slipped in and out, why not just call the police, hand RDS over and claim the massive reward offered??

Mike

[Howard Brown]

If you suggest that the watchmen was making "a couple of bucks" off RDS everythime he slipped in and out, why not just call the police, hand RDS over and claim the massive reward offered?? Lord Bulwer-Blavatsky

Mike,JM...

On top of all this...if RDS was not really sick, why take all the additional risks of being inside an establishment in the first place?

Again, none of this theorization that RDS was faking neurasthenia would have occurred when it did, had Mr. Harris known at the time of the publication of the Ripper File that he was already in the hospital for 106 days by the time of the Kelly murder. The "faked" concept was just a way of saving face. We're talking about a professional investigator here, not a newbie to the field of Ripperology. Of all people involved in this field, he should have been the first one to eliminate RDS completely from the list of suspects. By virtue of his expertise in such matters, being a consultant to Arthur C. Clarke, working on the BBC and being such a virulent opponent of several other theories floating around at that time, the biggest mystery is why he didn't put his foot down on RDS way back when.

[Ally]

I would like someone to tell me what does a headache look like? How can any doctor measure it or "prove" a patient has one? I would have been more impressed by the Donston was ill and in the hospital if his illness wasn't such a completely made up one. And perhaps the very simple reason he faked illness was to get himself a free bed. Sneaking out of a hospital in modern times isn't all that difficult to do and that's when the nurses are supposed to check on you in the middle of the night which they never remember to do. Sneaking out of a hospital back then would have been a cinch.

As for the nightwatchmen turning him in to collect the reward, please. If he were the Ripper, do you really think the only five times he ever left the hospital in the middle of the night was those five times he happened to kill? For all we know he could have had a standing arrangement with the night watchman, a bud of his whom he schmoozed into letting him go out on the town for a tipple and tickle once a week.

[Howard Brown]

I would like someone to tell me what does a headache look like? How can any doctor measure it or "prove" a patient has one? I would have been more impressed by the Donston was ill and in the hospital if his illness wasn't such a completely made up one. And perhaps the very simple reason he faked illness was to get himself a free bed. Sneaking out of a hospital in modern times isn't all that difficult to do and that's when the nurses are supposed to check on you in the middle of the night which they never remember to do. Sneaking out of a hospital back then would have been a cinch.

It was not a cinch...in the Currie Ward. I proved it myself that a person could leave a hospital,in modern times,last year with an I.V. hooked up to my arm at all hours of the night...but not if I had been locked in at night.

As for the nightwatchmen turning him in to collect the reward, please. If he were the Ripper, do you really think the only five times he ever left the hospital in the middle of the night was those five times he happened to kill? For all we know he could have had a standing arrangement with the night watchman, a bud of his whom he schmoozed into letting him go out on the town for a tipple and tickle once a week.

Yeah, and for all we know he could have had hookers sent up to his ward along with a couple o' bottles of gin...and a bullwhip. Please.

The fact remains,regardless of how much some of us try to squeeze 10 pounds of sand into a 5 pound bag, he could not leave the ward,much less the hospital...and in particular due to the fact had he been caught doing so...not in the commission of any crime,mind you, but just bebopping around outside...he would have lost his bed in that ward and been jettisoned into the street.

[Ally]

Er...no. We don't know he couldn't have left the hospital. You are presuming that the security of the hospital was as tight as a jail cell, when we know it wasn't and we know people still manage to escape from jails! But we are presuming D'onston could not possibly have escaped from a hospital? That's making assumptions also and ruling him out based on evidence you don't have.

You are presuming that the gate was religiously locked every night. You are presuming that there was never any human error. You are presuming he couldn't have taken advantage of the gate being opened for an emergency. You are presuming he couldn't take advantage of the gate being left open by accident. You are presuming that he couldn't have bribed a freaking night watchman at the hospital when the last 3 prison escapes here in the states happened because the prisoners bribed and became buddy-buddy with the guards! So it can absolutely happen and precedent shows that it has. We are talking about a hospital here, not a maximum security prison.

[Howard Brown]

Er...no. We don't know he couldn't have left the hospital. You are presuming that the security of the hospital was as tight as a jail cell, when we know it wasn't and we know people still manage to escape from jails! But we are presuming D'onston could not possibly have escaped from a hospital? That's making assumptions also and ruling him out based on evidence you don't have.

Without the original baseless claim that Stephenson faked neurasthenia,ask yourself whether you would even present,much less defend, an idea along these lines. Its never been incumbent on anyone to "disprove" he could leave or didn't leave the hospital, mechanically,..but on those who presume that he did for the reason that he was the Ripper.

Comparing jailbreaks to "hospitalbreaks" is a poor comparison. People who go to hospitals go there for one reason and those who go to jail for another.




You are presuming that the gate was religiously locked every night. You are presuming that there was never any human error. You are presuming he couldn't have taken advantage of the gate being opened for an emergency. You are presuming he couldn't take advantage of the gate being left open by accident. You are presuming that he couldn't have bribed a freaking night watchman at the hospital when the last 3 prison escapes here in the states happened because the prisoners bribed and became buddy-buddy with the guards! So it can absolutely happen and precedent shows that it has. We are talking about a hospital here, not a maximum security prison.

You are assuming that there wasn't scrupulous attention paid to the ward in question. Prove it.

You are assuming that the human error, in this instance,facilitated Stephenson in his "nocturnal adventures". Prove it.

You are assuming that had the gate been left unlocked,that he coincidentally left on those 4 ( not 5, since Harris & Co. dismiss Tabram ) nights. Prove it.

You are assuming that he had any money at all in order to bribe nightwatchmen.

It can happen...once more...in unsupervised hospitals or hospital wards. It didn't happen here. In order to return to the hospital, he would have had to re-enter the same gate with the same watchman on duty and every other swinging schwantz on that ward oblivious to his return.

I still have that bridge over here for sale,Al

[Ally]

Prove the gate was scrupulously guarded and there was no human error.

Considering that logic and precedent suggests that even jail cells are not scrupulously attended to or locked, considering logic and past precedent suggests that human error does occur, considering that logic and past precendent proves that night watchmen do fall asleep at their posts, one can logically presume this happened at a hospital. So logic and precedent makes those assumptions VALID. It is not logical to presume that the gate of a hospital was more stringently attended to than the gate of a jail cell so in fact, it would be incumbent on the person arguing FOR a more stringent security at the hospital to prove it, not the person arguing what past precedent and logic would dictate occurred--that there was opportunity for a person who wanted to leave, to leave.

[Howard Brown]

Prove the gate was scrupulously guarded and there was no human error.- Ally

I can't do that and don't have to do that...you know better than that,Ally. Its up to those who defend the notion that the gates were unattended to and night watchman Sleepy Mike Covell was restin' his feet up sawing wood at 3 A.M.

Considering that logic and precedent suggests that even jail cells are not scrupulously attended to or locked, considering logic and past precedent suggests that human error does occur, considering that logic and past precendent proves that night watchmen do fall asleep at their posts, one can logically presume this happened at a hospital. So logic and precedent makes those assumptions VALID. It is not logical to presume that the gate of a hospital was more stringently attended to than the gate of a jail cell so in fact, it would be incumbent on the person arguing FOR a more stringent security at the hospital to prove it, not the person arguing what past precedent and logic would dictate occurred--that there was opportunity for a person who wanted to leave, to leave.

Who escapes hospitals...and then returns? People who do escape hospitals don't wanna be there in the first place...and resist returning if and when apprehended. Same goes for mental institutions.

Oh...thats right... Except in this instance, where all these factors had to come into play at once.

Lazy watchmen, bribable watchmen, unsupervised gates, indifferent fellow patients, slaggard doctors and nurses, and a change of clothes stashed under the chin of the lion statue at the LH.

I still ain't buyin' it Al....and speaking of buying...howzabout my bridge?

[Ally]

No, Howard you are wrong. The most likely thing to have happened is what can be presumed to have occurred in logical argument. Past precedent suggests that gates would not have been scrupulously attended to. Past precedent indicates night watchmen would have fallen asleep. Past precedent suggest that people who want to get out, can get out. So that is what can logically be considered to have occurred in absence of any proof to the contrary.

As for who "escapes" hospitals, it is misleading to say who "escapes", the correct word would be "leave". The people at the hospital were not chained to their beds or their rooms.

Oh...thats right... Except in this instance, where all these factors had to come into play at once.

Lazy watchmen, bribable watchmen, unsupervised gates, indifferent fellow patients, slaggard doctors and nurses,

Oh yeah right because this is COMPLETELY beyond the bounds of possibility. How about a RECENT modern hospital stay of someone I know who was checked into a hospital room at 1 in the afternoon and NO ONE checked on them until 8 AM THE NEXT DAY! With modern conveniences like call buttons, ward checks etc. Hospitals are NOT well run and well maintained in modern times with modern conveniences with modern security. It is completley ludicrous to expect it to have been better in the slums of Whitechapel.

[Howard Brown]

No, Howard you are wrong. The most likely thing to have happened is what can be presumed to have occurred in logical argument. Past precedent suggests that gates would not have been scrupulously attended to. Past precedent indicates night watchmen would have fallen asleep. Past precedent suggest that people who want to get out, can get out. So that is what can logically be considered to have occurred in absence of any proof to the contrary.

Ally:

When you show the precedent for any of these conditions on that ward,I'll agree with you.

Oh yeah right because this is COMPLETELY beyond the bounds of possibility. How about a RECENT modern hospital stay of someone I know who was checked into a hospital room at 1 in the afternoon and NO ONE checked on them until 8 AM THE NEXT DAY! With modern conveniences like call buttons, ward checks etc. Hospitals are NOT well run and well maintained in modern times with modern conveniences with modern security. It is completley ludicrous to expect it to have been better in the slums of Whitechapel.

Ally:

Was your friend in an area which was locked down at night...so as to prevent insy-outsy ? I didn't think so.

Brooklyn or Verrazano-Narrows? I'll toss the Cross-Bronx in 'cause I love ya.