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  #11  
Old 08-19-2012, 02:11 AM
Supe Supe is offline
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Phil,

Ask the once most highly regarded historian AJP Taylor, or any physicist studying the start of the universe.

What are you blathering about?

As far as forensic evidence is concerned, do you understand what is involved today in making an estimate of time of death? Temperature of victim's body in situ, ambient temperature, as full a medical history as possible of the victim in order to balance all the elements that may speed up or retard temperature loss, blood clotting, onset of rigor and so on. None of that information is available for any of the Ripper victim's, so how would you expect your three "independent" (independent of what by the way? The cabal?) experts, or for that matter one hundred "experts," to make an informed determination of ToD? It's nonsense.

Don.
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  #12  
Old 08-19-2012, 03:14 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Phil.
We cannot even make a reliable determination today, even with all the forensic sciences.

'Determination of death time by the pathologist is seldom useful as evidence in criminal proceedings because of the non-predictability of the rate of post mortem changes, the lack of reproducible standards allowing correlation between post mortem interval and a post mortem change, and a wide variation in opinions when confronted with the same facts. It is a subjective opinion and little weight should be placed on it'
Read more: http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/patholo...rtem-interval/

In the 19th century the three most reliable methods for determining the Post Mortem Interval (from death to autopsy) were Rigor Mortis, Algor mortis, and Liver Mortis. Today these are still referred to as the three "classic" methods.

This pdf is a very good source for anyone interested.
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedi.../timedeath.pdf

Regards, Jon S.
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  #13  
Old 08-19-2012, 04:48 AM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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'As far as forensic evidence is concerned, do you understand what is involved today in making an estimate of time of death? Temperature of victim's body in situ, ambient temperature, as full a medical history as possible of the victim in order to balance all the elements that may speed up or retard temperature loss, blood clotting, onset of rigor and so on. None of that information is available for any of the Ripper victim's, so how would you expect your three "independent" (independent of what by the way? The cabal?) experts, or for that matter one hundred "experts," to make an informed determination of ToD? It's nonsense.'

Hello Don,

Do be so kind and quote your sources next time, there's a good chap. We wouldn't want anyone thinking you were an acredited expert on time of death pathology in situ, would we?

Independant of EACH OTHER, done independantly, without the other being aware of, hindering any use of one another's work. Separate from others. Separately. On their own.
Want any more definitions of the meanings? There are various on-line dictionaries available you know?

'Nonsense' eh? A ludicrous notion? A lame idea? The suggestion that ANY NUMBER of Pathologists could attempt to form an opinion today related to medical evidence in 1888?
I see.
Then you obviously think it was completely nonsensical of Howard to ask someone to do that very thing! Now be a nice chap and tell the gentleman in the same, deft manner you have here. I'm sure he'll get the message. I did.

Now if you wont mind, I have a respectful post to answer from Jon, whých is most helpful and educational. With references, note- so you wont have to offer me any now. That's good.

Regards

Phil
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Last edited by Phil Carter : 08-19-2012 at 04:54 AM.
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  #14  
Old 08-19-2012, 05:00 AM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Phil.
We cannot even make a reliable determination today, even with all the forensic sciences.

'Determination of death time by the pathologist is seldom useful as evidence in criminal proceedings because of the non-predictability of the rate of post mortem changes, the lack of reproducible standards allowing correlation between post mortem interval and a post mortem change, and a wide variation in opinions when confronted with the same facts. It is a subjective opinion and little weight should be placed on it'
Read more: http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/patholo...rtem-interval/

In the 19th century the three most reliable methods for determining the Post Mortem Interval (from death to autopsy) were Rigor Mortis, Algor mortis, and Liver Mortis. Today these are still referred to as the three "classic" methods.

This pdf is a very good source for anyone interested.
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedi.../timedeath.pdf

Regards, Jon S.
Hello Jon,

Thank you for your excellent post. It is indeed most appreciated.
I have had a quick look at the links. But may have missed a reference to near-attack time of death examinations (violent crime)? This area interests me greatly. I will peruse the links again at length.
Thank you again for your help.
EDIT- I have found a reference in one, and it clearly states that the nearer the body being attacked to the examination starting, the estimated t.o.d will be more precise.
best wishes

Phil
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Last edited by Phil Carter : 08-19-2012 at 05:15 AM. Reason: addition
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  #15  
Old 08-19-2012, 05:40 AM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Hello all,

In one of the links Jon so kindly provided, it states that it is futile estimating any time of death in units of minutes or parts of an hour, when the time of death is UNDER an hour. It goes on to say that any doctor who does this is exposing himself to ridicule.
At the same time he is to give a maximum estimate and a minimum estimate of time of death.

Interesting.

Best wishes

Phil
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  #16  
Old 08-19-2012, 05:15 PM
Supe Supe is offline
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Phil,

Do be so kind and quote your sources next time, there's a good chap.

A rather risible request from someone who has been caught plagiarizing on these boards.

Don.
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  #17  
Old 08-19-2012, 07:57 PM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supe View Post
A rather risible request from someone who has been caught plagiarizing on these boards.

Don.
Don,

A rather silly comment from one being caught out (by others, note) and reknowned for his 'holier than thou' attitude, his schoolboylike joining in on other people's attempted digs. Not just me, note. If you are trying to insult me, you are failing miserably. You are also OFF TOPIC.
Now- as this is MY thread-I call a halt to it. Kindly desist from more off topic insults as above and stick to the subject.

Others, Jon (Wickerman) included, directed myself, and all, to two really excellent links that are educational to all here. Whatever is presented I consider fairly, for or against, shame it doesnt fit in with your projected image of me. You see Don, like Howard, like myself, there will be people who in future who will ask the same questions, for varying reasons.
THIS thread may help them in their thoughts. It is for EVERYONE'S benefit, now and in the future.


All,

Like it or not, as Dave agreed, the problem of TIME is a recurring theme throughout the series of attacks- whether by witness, policeman or doctor.
This thread adresses one of those problems.

ONE of those problems is comparable knowledge 124 years ago and the subsequent discovery thqough learning showing quite how wrong the doctor's knowledge was then with what we know about pathology now.

Nowadays, it is regarded as futile to estimate a time of death under one hour since any purported attack. Also that it is a precaution (and recommended) that any time of death be approched in the case of the EARLIEST estimation, to be from the time of the last RELIABLE sighting of the victim when alive. In Eddowes case, a policeman letting her out of Bishopsgate Station. (Lawende, by dint of his testimony, would arguably be deemed unreliable).

Therefore, can we take this and apply accordingly? Try the Kelly murder? The pathologist (doctor) made no certain time of death AT THE inquest itself. Hutchinson's statement came AITER the inquest. So using the accepted rule of thumb of today's standards, his statement can be ignored. So WHEN was the last reliable sighting of Mary Kelly?
That would be the pathologist of 2012's, EARLIEST initial estimate of time of death.

Perhaps now some will see what I am getting at. A TOTALLY different picture.

You can all read those modern day applications by looking at the links Jon so kindly provided.
I dont want to be looked at as cherry-picking, so by all means do have a wander through the links.
Through modern application of reliable knowledge of how to examine time of death situations, we can see that we have been presented with evidence from doctors in 1888, that would be regarded as highly controversial by the standards of 2012.
The given time of death in a few cases would be very questionable.

Best wishes

Phil
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Last edited by Phil Carter : 08-19-2012 at 08:12 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #18  
Old 08-19-2012, 09:15 PM
Supe Supe is offline
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Phil,

Caught out at what? And by whom? What I mentioned about being factors in the consideration of ToD are common knowledge and require no citation. What you did on more than one occasion was lift whole passages from Wikipedia and pass them off as your own. Anyone who wants the particulars may contact me.

Do get your facts straight in the future.

Don.



Don.
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  #19  
Old 08-19-2012, 10:09 PM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Don.

This is your 2nd posting in a row containing OFF TOPIC comment. I will NOT be answering it. I clearly stated I wanted no more of such on my thread, and put an end to it.. Yet you continue. You have been kindly asked to desist from it. For the final time, please kindly respect my request and the thread's topic. Thank you.

Phil
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Justice for the 96 = achieved
Accountability? ....

Last edited by Phil Carter : 08-19-2012 at 10:22 PM.
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