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  #91  
Old 06-28-2018, 04:47 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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This latest in the thread is very good. Learning much. : )
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #92  
Old 06-28-2018, 05:08 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi Steve,

"Just what evidence does Cross give which says Neil is not there at 3.45?
Come on, what does he say that confirms your view?"

A Juryman: Did you tell Constable Mizen that another constable wanted him in Buck's-row?

Witness [Cross]: No, because I did not see a policeman in Buck's-row.

Regards,

Simon
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  #93  
Old 06-28-2018, 06:24 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi Steve,

"Just what evidence does Cross give which says Neil is not there at 3.45?
Come on, what does he say that confirms your view?"

A Juryman: Did you tell Constable Mizen that another constable wanted him in Buck's-row?

Witness [Cross]: No, because I did not see a policeman in Buck's-row.

Regards,

Simon

Simon

I do not wish to be rude, but that does not address the point raised in any sense at all.


The question is not was Neil there when Croos was, All involved say no. The issue is was Neil at Brown's Yard at or close to 03.45?

Lets do it stage by stage

Cross says he saw no one in Bucks Row- we agree on that.

Does that mean Neil is not in Bucks Row at 3.45?

Of course it does not, unless you can place Cross in Bucks Row at 3.45 too.

Ignore Neil and Thains testimonies and we have two possible sources for supplying the information to resolve this.

We have Paul, who claims to be in Bucks Row at 3.45, however his account is highly questionable for many reasons including his tendency to take the lead and his tendency to attack the police.

Secondly we have Mizen who claims he met the two carmen at the junction of Old Montague and Hanbury street also at 3.45.

It is not in anyway clear that Cross can be shown to have been in Bucks Row at 3.45.

If that cannot be shown, it follows he cannot say if Neil is there at that time.

Why is that so hard to accept Simon?

There is nothing in the quote you provide which can suggest that Neil was not at Brown's Yard at or close to 3.45 is there


And of course the 3.45 itself need not be set in stone, but thats a different issue.


Regards
Steve

Last edited by Elamarna : 06-28-2018 at 06:30 AM.
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  #94  
Old 06-28-2018, 07:19 AM
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caz caz is offline
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Quote:
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Mizen himself says he meets the carmen at 3.45, again this should not be treated as if its set in stone to GMT, however it would take about 3 minutes from the murder scene to reach him (2.5-3.5 mins depending on the walking pace) , such fits very well with the possible position of Neil, and would allow him to miss the carmen and arrive at the body at the same approx time that the carmen reach Mizen. Coincidence maybe, but too tight a fit for me.

Once we accept that Paul's time is not set in stone, there is no evidence to suggest that Neil was not there when he should have been.
Hi Steve,

In addition to this, people tend to round times up or down to the nearest 5 minutes, don't they? Even today, a witness would be very unlikely to know, and even less likely to say, that he found a body at, say, 3.43, or was told about a body at, say, 3.46. Why would we think anything was amiss, therefore, if both witnesses gave a time of 3.45, despite the locations being 3 minutes' walk apart? Back in 1888 they could have rounded it up or down to 3.45 and easily been ten minutes out either way, depending on what they were using to tell - or guesstimate - the time.

We have three clocks in our small kitchen, a battery wall clock and digital clocks on the cooker and microwave oven. I regularly find all three showing different times, out by up to two or three minutes, and have to synchronise them all again, using the time on the laptop - which will be different again from the kitchen clocks and the wall clock in the sitting room!

Love,

Caz
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  #95  
Old 06-28-2018, 07:34 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caz View Post
Hi Steve,

In addition to this, people tend to round times up or down to the nearest 5 minutes, don't they? Even today, a witness would be very unlikely to know, and even less likely to say, that he found a body at, say, 3.43, or was told about a body at, say, 3.46. Why would we think anything was amiss, therefore, if both witnesses gave a time of 3.45, despite the locations being 3 minutes' walk apart? Back in 1888 they could have rounded it up or down to 3.45 and easily been ten minutes out either way, depending on what they were using to tell - or guesstimate - the time.


Couldn't agree more Caz, of course when ones reads the actual reports rather than what gets printed in books, its very clear that often "about" or "round" becomes an exact time. It happens in the reports too.

We have three clocks in our small kitchen, a battery wall clock and digital clocks on the cooker and microwave oven. I regularly find all three showing different times, out by up to two or three minutes, and have to synchronise them all again, using the time on the laptop - which will be different again from the kitchen clocks and the wall clock in the sitting room!

Love,

Caz
X
The very point i have been trying to make over the last few years time and time again.
Unfortunately some won't listen or just don't seem to understand.

I keep banging on about absolute (its 3.45, set in stone) and relative times( the carmen arrive at Mizen approx 3 mins after they leave the body, Neil also very possible arrives at the body at the same time they meet Mizen) but i am not sure people understand what i mean or understand the significance of the differences.


Steve
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  #96  
Old 06-28-2018, 07:47 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi Steve,

Cross can be placed in Bucks Row at 3.45 am. He was standing over [or near] the body as Paul approached at 3.45 am.

In order to paint the police as squeaky clean in this imbroglio, Cross and Paul have to be painted as mistaken, or as liars.

Talking of which, PC Neil stated that he saw "another constable in Baker's Row." Apart from the fact that there was no line of sight to Baker's Row, this constable could not have been Mizen because at that moment [3.45 am] he was further up Baker's Row on the corner of Hanbury Street talking to Cross and Paul.

It's a fair bet that the 3.45 am timing was agreed upon after the fact by PCs Neil, Thain and Mizen. There's no way to prove it, I know, so I'm going back to my gardening.

The answer lies in the soil Arthur Fallowfield.

Regards,

Simon
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  #97  
Old 06-28-2018, 08:18 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi Steve,

Cross can be placed in Bucks Row at 3.45 am. He was standing over [or near] the body as Paul approached at 3.45 am.

In order to paint the police as squeaky clean in this imbroglio, Cross and Paul have to be painted as mistaken, or as liars.

Cross has to be called nothing, its just Paul who is mistaken, probably with little or no intent. Indeed the source he used could have said 3.45, just that it was not syncronised with the times of the 3 police.
And no one is painting the Police "Squeaky clean" i have made it clear in this very thread that i consider Thain did not tell the whole truth and Mizen, as a result of my source based anaylisis certainly did not.



Talking of which, PC Neil stated that he saw "another constable in Baker's Row." Apart from the fact that there was no line of sight to Baker's Row, this constable could not have been Mizen because at that moment [3.45 am] he was further up Baker's Row on the corner of Hanbury Street talking to Cross and Paul.


Sorry but you are wrong on the sight issue. The Bottom third of Bakers Row junction is clearly visable from less than half way across Bucks Row. Proven by both OS mapping and 3D reconstruction.
Neil does not say he see this constable, who is indeed Mizen at 3.45, but after Thain has gone for Llewellyn.
Using these rediculious absolute times and sorry but they are, that means he sees Mizen at approx 3.48. At the very earliest. Such of cpurse is of great importance when looming at tbe so called scam



It's a fair bet that the 3.45 am timing was agreed upon after the fact by PCs Neil, Thain and Mizen. There's no way to prove it, I know, so I'm going back to my gardening.

The answer lies in the soil — Arthur Fallowfield.

Regards,

Simon
They may have, but as you say it cannot be tested.

I however consider it unlikely that Mizen, agreed anything with Neil, anything at all.


Hope the garden is going well Simon.


Best wishes


Steve

Last edited by Elamarna : 06-28-2018 at 08:28 AM.
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  #98  
Old 06-28-2018, 08:43 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi Steve,

"I have made it clear in this very thread that I consider Thain did not tell the whole truth and Mizen, as a result of my source based analysis certainly did not."

I would hazard a guess that they did not tell the whole truth for the purpose of saving their backsides.

Why are you ruling out Mizen having agreed anything with Neil?

My fig tree is now nine feet tall.

Name:  FIG.jpg
Views: 126
Size:  104.0 KB

Regards,

Simon
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  #99  
Old 06-28-2018, 08:53 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi Steve,

"I have made it clear in this very thread that I consider Thain did not tell the whole truth and Mizen, as a result of my source based analysis certainly did not."

I would hazard a guess that they did not tell the whole truth for the purpose of saving their backsides.

Why are you ruling out Mizen having agreed anything with Neil?

My fig tree is now nine feet tall.

Attachment 18704

Regards,

Simon
I beleive Mizen lied, to cover himself. Technically he did nothing wrong, but the press and public may have roasted him alive. His superiors knew, but has it had no material effect on the inquest, and protected the force as a whole, took no immediate action against him.


If you want pm me, its a major part of my book, so dont want to reveal all in public.

Nice fig tree.

I see that we can disagree and remain not on civil but friendly, thats good.



Steve
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  #100  
Old 06-28-2018, 09:20 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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My fig tree has PMd you.

Regards,

Simon
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