Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Torso Killings: JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful. - by Batman 7 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Batman 8 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - by Batman 14 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Sam Flynn 58 minutes ago.
Torso Killings: JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful. - by Sam Flynn 60 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - by MrBarnett 2 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - (25 posts)
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - (21 posts)
Torso Killings: JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful. - (14 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Time after Time: Did JtR have a watch? - (3 posts)
Shades of Whitechapel: The Christie Case - (1 posts)
General Discussion: My profile of the ripper - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1981  
Old 11-11-2017, 02:53 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,494
Default

jerryd: Thanks for the reply,

I have to disagree that Lechmere would pick that spot. The fact that spot in that vault was chosen was no coincidence in my opinion. Someone familiar with that basement was involved, which, by the way, could be someone other than Wildbore. Several news reports indicate there was suspicion on the workmen because of where the body was found. I would go as far to say (without proof) that some of these men were watched by the police. And maybe watched for a long period of time, due to the fact Elizabeth Jackson wasn't dismembered until June of 1889.

I cannot say that Lechmere would have picked the spot. Nor can I say that he would not have. These matters are not within our reach to fully understand.

I can see the logic behind your suggestion that much points to someone who worked on the premises. But I think the suggestion works a lot better when we look at the Whitehall deed in isolation. Once we accept what Hebbert said about the connection between the 1887, 1888 and 1889 deeds, the perspective changes.
Let´s say that the killer was one of the construction workers at the building site, and let´s call him, say, Frederick Wildbore.
Why would he put a torso in the place where he worked - and one torso only? Why did he otherwise dump the parts in places that had no comparable connection at all to himself, as far as we can tell? What was he doing in Pinchin Street?

The idea that Wildbore was so hot on getting attention that he even "found" the Whitehall torso when his comrades failed to do so, seems very odd to me.
To me, having proposed Lechmere for a number of years, you may perhaps see how I find the Pinchin Street connection much more alluring than the idea of a construction worker who placed one torso on the tips of his own shoes and then steered clear of any coupling to himself both before and after.


What would have been Lechmere's working hours? Would they coincide with the working hours of the men at the worksite? 6 a.m to 5 p.m roughly.

We have it on record that he started work at 4 AM on the day he ki... sorry, "found" Nichols. And he would have worked long days, stretching numerous hours into the afternoon.

And if Lechmere wasn't hauling around bodies with his cart during working hours, did he have another cart at home to haul bodies around when he didn't have his work cart? Again, genuine questions.

With no answers, I´m afraid. Lechmere was by no means a poor man. He amassed money enough to start a shop of his own, and he left a fair bit behind when he died. His mother was a resourceful woman, it would seem. She was working as a horse flesh dealer in 1891, quite possibly having access to transport for that flesh - meaning that there may have been a possibility for Lechmere to use that transport too. He may of course have helped out in that line of business too - and we don´t know when it started out.
There is absolutely no way that we can rule out that he had the means to transport body parts around London, I´m afraid. If he had been dirt poor and if he had no known connections in the transport business, I would have been more inclined to agree that he seemed unlikely to have transported the torso to Whitehall.
But even in such a case, I would still have thought that there WAS a solution, meaning that Lechmere was the culprit. It fits that way, much, much better than any other way I´ve seen suggested.
Call me a fanatic if you wish (not that I think you DO wish to do that, but here´s being humble...), but I have so far seen no reason at all to wawer about Lechmere.

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-11-2017 at 02:55 PM.
Quick reply to this message
  #1982  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:26 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 11,397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
The fact that spot in that vault was chosen was no coincidence in my opinion. Someone familiar with that basement was involved
A sensible, and eminently probable, suggestion.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message
  #1983  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:35 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,170
Default

Quote:
I can see the logic behind your suggestion that much points to someone who worked on the premises. But I think the suggestion works a lot better when we look at the Whitehall deed in isolation. Once we accept what Hebbert said about the connection between the 1887, 1888 and 1889 deeds, the perspective changes.
Yes perspective changes for me, too. In 1887 the construction of the basement in Whitehall began. By September of 1889, the building may have been far enough along that it was no longer an option to use for luring women, storing parts or cutting them up.


Quote:
Why would he put a torso in the place where he worked - and one torso only? Why did he otherwise dump the parts in places that had no comparable connection at all to himself, as far as we can tell? What was he doing in Pinchin Street?
I'm theorizing that maybe the Whitehall victim was killed in the basement. Then parts were taken away piecemeal, or buried in the basement. As far as Pinchin Street goes, Wildbore has a possible connection to No. 1, Backchurch Lane. It's a long shot, for sure, but it's as close to the arch as you can get, really. Grover & Sons also has timber holds in the docks in that area. Grover & Sons had several Bid Tenders in the Whitechapel area, I'm trying to find which tenders, if any, were accepted for work in the area. As far as dumping parts with no connection, I think I stated before all the parts were on a possible and likely route to his home in Battersea. The other, out of the way Rainham parts, were near his employers office.


Quote:
The idea that Wildbore was so hot on getting attention that he even "found" the Whitehall torso when his comrades failed to do so, seems very odd to me.
You've said many times yourself, the killer was making a statement by putting the body in the police buildings. What better way to make a statement? Nobody was finding the body, so why not find it for them? That, or he was in the process of trying to bury it at some point in the near future. Just as he did with the leg. Heck, maybe if they looked hard enough they'd have found a few skulls buried in the vault?

In reality, I think his comrades failed to smell it because it wasn't there when they were in that part of the vault. If it were, I'm quite sure they would have smelled it once they entered that area.
Quick reply to this message
  #1984  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:44 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,170
Default

I must say this too, Christer,

Wildbore or another workman may have only been the depositors of the parts and not the killer at all. I haven't left that option out.
Quick reply to this message
  #1985  
Old 11-11-2017, 05:17 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,020
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Coming soon, a thread entitled "Was 'Wildbore' another Lechmere alias?"
wilbores connection to anything is exactly the same as lechs. but ihavnt see you two sherlocks give jerry one tenth of bull **** you've thrown at fish so a big **** you to you two! don't like it? too ******* bad!

and by the way-contribute something other than bullshit negativity and amusing anectotes!. wow that's a shocker!
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline

Last edited by Abby Normal : 11-11-2017 at 05:24 PM.
Quick reply to this message
  #1986  
Old 11-11-2017, 05:26 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,870
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
wilbores connection to anything is exactly the same as lechs. but ihavnt see you two sherlocks give jerry one tenth of bull **** you've thrown at fish so a big **** you to you two! don't like it? too ******* bad!

and by the way-contribute something other than bullshit negativetity!. wow that's a shocker!
wildbore is far more suspicious. he's the one using the space where there is a rotting torso and it doesn't really make sense that he wouldn't smell it. Also the vault is a such a specific, locked, hidden away place that only people who work there know about and know how to get into. so it's nothing like lechmere or buck's row really.
Quick reply to this message
  #1987  
Old 11-11-2017, 05:28 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,020
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Rocky

You misunderstand my view and maybe I could have been clearer. Yes there has been some very good debate, by many contributors. Much of the interesting stuff has been regards the Torso killings and the item you mentioned from Joshua was very interesting, however none of it really suggests the same killer for both series of murders.

Further i see nothing which advances the question of was the same MOTIVE involved, which was surely the purpose of the thread given it's title.


Steve
nice back track. I'm not buying it either. theres been a lot of great stuff and if you and mister superficial would stop the knee jerk crap against anything fish says you might just learn something.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message
  #1988  
Old 11-11-2017, 05:30 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,020
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
wildbore is far more suspicious. he's the one using the space where there is a rotting torso and it doesn't really make sense that he wouldn't smell it. Also the vault is a such a specific, locked, hidden away place that only people who work there know about and know how to get into. so it's nothing like lechmere or buck's row really.
absolutely-in this case. but weve now seen how big that maze is. so yes ive got him number one with torsos. but you guys gotta give fish the same respect for lech with for polly with bucks row or else its just personal! and that dosnt get us anywhere either! see what I mean?
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message
  #1989  
Old 11-11-2017, 05:34 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,870
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
absolutely-in this case. but weve now seen how big that maze is. so yes ive got him number one with torsos. but you guys gotta give fish the same respect for lech with for polly with bucks row or else its just personal! and that dosnt get us anywhere either! see what I mean?
uh no not at all. buck's row is a public street
Quick reply to this message
  #1990  
Old 11-11-2017, 05:37 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,020
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
uh no not at all. buck's row is a public street
both discovered the body.exactly the same. exept lech was seen befor he raised the alarm. so actually much more suspicious IMHO
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.