Ligature Signature, or How did Jack the Ripper get his ligature knowledge?

[Robert St Devil]

The ecchymosis on Mary Jane Kellys neck suggest strangulation. The blood clots in Elizabeth Stride's left ventricle suggest strangulation. Garroting a victim properly was a professional operation.

How did Jack the Ripper get his ligature knowledge?

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[Pcdunn]

Garroting was common in Victorian underworld

The ecchymosis on Mary Jane Kellys neck suggest strangulation. The blood clots in Elizabeth Stride's left ventricle suggest strangulation. Garroting a victim properly was a professional operation.

How did Jack the Ripper get his ligature knowledge?

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Some years ago I came across an article in a history journal about how frequently robbers attacked people from the rear, using the ligature. Spiked collars for gentlemen were patented to deter this practice.

Some knowledge of the strangler's art might have been picked up in India, where the work of the "Thuggee" has led to our word "thug". Does that mean Jack had military experience? Or was he merely a career criminal?

[Robert St Devil]

Hello Pcdunn.
Thats where i was hoping the discussion would go. I know that ANATOMICAL KNOWLEDGE is a popular inquiry, but i think the aspect of the strangulation has been overshadowed at the expense.

Yes. In the late 1850s there was a Garrotte Scare. I got my info from teh garroting page on victorianlondon.org. I recommend reading it. Toward the bottom, there is an article about this 3 man operation. Th first two men were called "stalls". The first stall was the lookout. The second stall's job was to pocket rifle the victim for the money, watch, etc. The last man was called the "nasty man". He was the garroter. And they had a method. They would pick a victim and stalk him for days or weeks. They wore hats to signal to each other; in fact, one of the jobs of the second man was to remove the victim and the nasty man's hat so that they wouldnt kick about in the scuffle. They would practice garroting until the nasty man hit the larynx without hesitation. The nasty man could render his victim senseless in seconds. If the nasty man was having problems garroting, the 2nd stall would step in with a punch to the victims gut. The 2nd stall also assisted in laying the victim down without injury or making any noise since they were accustomed to operating in low-lit areas and they didnt want to bring attention.

I dont believe the women were poisoned anymore. I think Elizabeth Strides silent cries for help were muffled by the ligature. There is another source online of a man strangulated by garroters. His post mortem (clots in the left ventricle, the right ventricle exhausted) read nearly identical to her post mortem.

Your question is headed in the right direction. By all accounts, Jack the Ripper can perform the same operation as a 3-man garroting team. But how did he learn this professional skill?

[Pcdunn]

Hello, Robert.

Could the Ripper have been a former soldier, and have been trained in hand-to-hand combat?

Or was he a member of one of these three-man gangs of street robbers?

How do we determine the truth of either of these possibilities?

[DJA]

Yes. In the late 1850s there was a Carrotte Scare.

Prolly an offshoot of the Pottattoe Blight

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello, Robert.

Could the Ripper have been a former soldier, and have been trained in hand-to-hand combat?

Or was he a member of one of these three-man gangs of street robbers?

How do we determine the truth of either of these possibilities?

For your information suspect Carl Feigenbaum had been a soldier in the Prussian Army

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[curious4]

I have thought that the killer could have been a soldier suffering from severe post traumatic stress. He doesn't necessarily have to have served in India to have learned the Thugee technique (if you can call it that), he could have picked it up from an older soldier.

Best wishes
C4

[Shaggyrand]

I don't think that he would have had to go far to learn how to do it. The Thuggee version was highly ritualistic, they used a yellow scarf with a knot in the center to help crush the larynx and required force on the back. It takes a little bit longer than other methods. I mean just a few seconds but there would be more struggle and the victim harder to control if that's where the inspiration came from.
The garrote scare was in 1862 or 63 and the press were incredibly sensationalist about it. A handful of incidents were blown up large, so large that Parliament enacted new legislation for anyone caught garroting to be flogged while in prison. The whole of his knowledge of garrotes might come straight out of old newspapers or overhearing people talk about it during the panic or even years afterward.

[Robert St Devil]

Hello All.
I will post the links to my souces highlighting the aspects that caught my attention later today. However & in the meantime.... I think garrotting ties [npi] in with the neckerchief, ribbon and bonnet themes in this case; the bonnet having been tied With a knot under the chin. Or, the idea of him offering to tie a gift of a handkerchief round their neck {cinch!}.

I believe garrotting lends credibility to Schwartz' testimony. He attests to seeing a woman being attacked on Berner St. She cries for help but not loudly BECAUSE she has a ligature (silk handkerchief; could she afford silk?) cinched around her neck and she is losing conciousness. Maybe her height made her a difficult victim but that obstacle is not relevant since Jack the Ripper is situationally adaptable. We know she was strangulated by the condition of her heart in the post mortem.

The question is, how many other garrotting possibilities could Schwartz have witnessed in front of Dutfield Yard if it wasnt Elizabeth Stride? How many slashing garrotters would you expect to find roaming near Berner St on Sep 30th?

[curious4]

When I looked into the Thugees a while back, I was intrigued by the mention of mutilations of their victims. There is a sketch of a Thugee cutting the eyes of his victim (shades of Kate and Mary). I can imagine an older soldier telling tales of the 'orrible mutilations carried out by the Thugees. No extra knots in the victim's scarves, though. I'm not sure the Thugees were always ritual killers, routined is the word that comes to mind - they were robbers, after all.

Best wishes
C4

[curious4]

When I looked into the Thugees a while back, I was intrigued by the mention of mutilations of their victims. There is a sketch of a Thugee cutting the eyes of his victim (shades of Kate and Mary). I can imagine an older soldier telling tales of the 'orrible mutilations carried out by the Thugees. No extra knots in the victim's scarves, though. I'm not sure the Thugees were always ritual killers, routined is the word that comes to mind - they were robbers, after all.

Best wishes
C4

Sorry, this belongs on another thread!!! My phone keeps jumping between threads !

No, there's no getting away from that "since", although I'd like to. Wanting to know what his behaviour was like during the period he was out of prison. But no, will have to admit defeat on this one. Don't think he was the killer though, if they had their eyes on him in august, surely he would have been carefully watched. Especially with a name like Ripper!

Best wishes
C4

[Robert St Devil]

I felt this garrotting operation sets a parameter of criminal professionalism that Jack the Ripper obviously met. When it comes to the strangulation aspect of his MO, he is efficient, adaptable, resourceful, natural. I dont feel like he rendered these women unconscious in a clumsy manner (like a crime of passion). His seems to be method over manner considering he is performing his ritual or operation in public.

-Victorianlondon.org-
A regular gang doe not often make speculative ventures. They call that "throwing a chance away,“ meaning that they run extraordinary risks. The favourite method is to select a promising victim, mark his incoming and outgoings, and await a fair opportunity of time and place. He is marked. Time and place are fixed for the deed; but opportunity is never forced. If success appears doubtful on one occasion, they wait till another comes round, and will dog one man for nights and even weeks together. At Iast fortune favours the unjust, and the thing is done. The “front stall" walks a few yard in advance of the prey; it is his duty to look out for dangers ahead. The "back stall" comes on at a still further distance behind, or sometimes in the carriage-way - aloof, but at the victim's side. Immediately in his real' walks the "nasty man," approaching nearer and nearer, with steps which keep time with those of him whom he follows. The first stall lifts his hat from his head in token that all is clear beyond; the second stall makes no sign to the contrary; and then the third ruffian, coming swiftly up, flings his right arm round the victim, striking him smartly on the forehead. Instinctively he throws his head back, and in that movement loses every chance of escape. His throat is fully offered to his assailant, who instantly embraces it with his left arm, the bone just above the wrist being pressed against the "apple" of the throat. At the same moment the garotter, dropping his right hand, seizes the other’s left wrist; and thus supplied with a powerful lever, draws him back upon his breast and there holds him. The "nasty man's" part is done. His burden is heIpless from the first moment, and speedily becomes insensibIe; all he has to do is to be a little merciful. An experienced garotter knows immediately when his prey is insensible (or so he boast ), and then he relaxes his embrace somewhat; but if symptoms of recovery should follow too rapidly, the hug is tightened forthwith. Meanwhile the stalls are busy. Their first care after the victim is seized and safely held, is to take off his hat and their comrade’s too; hats awkwardly kick about in the scuffle, and it is obviously not well for the garotter to leave anything that is his on the field of strife. This operation is assigned to the "front stall," and is simple enough; but he has sometimes to perform another and a far more onerous one. ShouId the "nasty man" have a "tumble," or, in language a little plainer, should he find a difficulty in "screwing up" his subject, it is the duty of the "front stall" to assist him by a heavy blow, generally delivered just under the waist. The screwing up is easy after that, and then the second stall proceeds to rifle the victim's pockets. This done, the garotter allows his insensible burden to drop to the ground, carefully avoiding a fall, lest that should arouse him.

[Robert St Devil]

I used Dr. Dinesh Rao's Forensic Pathology Online for information on LIGATURE STRANGULATION. It suggested the presence of ecchymosis about the neck; this is a condition reported in Mary Jane Kelly's post mortem report. However... it mentions that ligature marks will not appear if the ligature is applied AFTER the victim's death. For me, this indicates that Mary Jane Kelly was strangulated first.

It has other information useful to the case. Depending on the material could factor into whether or not a ligature mark was left (Rose Mylett?). The time to render a victim unconscious occurred in matters of seconds. &c.

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Garroting seems to have been an adopted practice. I can only speculate whether it originated with the thuggees, but Jack the Ripper's method does share similarities (confidence scam, garrotting with an article of clothing). Jailers used it as a method to control prisoners aboard ships. The prisoners saw how effective and non-lethal was the method that they put it into practice. Leading up to the "Great Garrote Scare of 63". "By 1875 garrotting fades from the headlines" (The Liverpool Underworld: Crime In the City 1750-1900)

[Wickerman]

Garroting seems to have been an adopted practice. I can only speculate whether it originated with the thuggees, but Jack the Ripper's method does share similarities (confidence scam, garrotting with an article of clothing). Jailers used it as a method to control prisoners aboard ships. The prisoners saw how effective and non-lethal was the method that they put it into practice. Leading up to the "Great Garrote Scare of 63". "By 1875 garrotting fades from the headlines" (The Liverpool Underworld: Crime In the City 1750-1900)

There are still isolated cases of garrotting being reported in the press for 1888, every month throughout the year. The method is still being used.

[Shaggyrand]

Garroting was an incredibly popular practice through most of human history and in most places. Long before the Thuggees. It was used in both China and Rome as far back as the first century BC. Probably was an ancient practice then too.
The French and Spanish were big fans of it in the 1800s. The French would garrote prisoners of war. It was Spain's main execution until the 1950s. The Portuguese loved to use it on the Indigionous groups in The Americas during the early days of slaughtering them. All of Europe used it as a favorite torture method in the Middle Ages.