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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Prince Albert Victor

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  #1  
Old 12-06-2014, 06:17 PM
C. F. Leon C. F. Leon is offline
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Default Eddie's Future Title?

Everything concerning Prince Eddy and JtR aside, there's a general question that's puzzling me. If Eddy had lived past 1901, when his father became King, would he (Eddy) as heir have become the Prince of Wales? Or would he have remained duke of Clarence or even kept BOTH titles? The same question applys with the current Prince Charles: when (or IF) he becomes King, does the title "Prince of Wales" transfer (if that's the proper term) to William?

Also, is there a formal sequence of titles AFTER 'PoW' and are the heirs 'promoted' up the sequence? There doesn't seem to be: Andrew's title is not the same as Henry's, even though they BOTH are 2nd sons, but I can't find any actual information.
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Old 12-06-2014, 09:30 PM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Hello C.F.Leon,

I may be able to explain part of your query. The title of any Royal is bestowed upon them by the reigning monarch. When a particular time arrives (Charles was 21 I beleve) then the title of Prince of Wales is bestowed upon the heir to the throne. SHOULD Charles become King, his title of Prince of Wales will be erased almost immediately because his oldest son is already of age and if the Monarch so wish it, William will be bestowed the title and an investiture will take place.

As regards 2nd sons, there are Dukedoms and Earldoms currently available. The Monarch will choose and bestow one, or more, and there is no particular "order" of title. Some are regarded as more appropriate than others, and the title Duke of Clarence and Avondale has not been used since the death of Eddy because it is regarded as "unlucky".

That is a simplification of the processes, as far as I understand it. I may be in err though! :-)

Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones. :-)


Phil
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  #3  
Old 12-07-2014, 12:27 AM
Rosella Rosella is offline
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If Prince Eddy had lived into his father's reign his father King Edward would have bestowed the title of Prince of Wales on him. It's not automatic but it has almost always been done in centuries past.

Until he was given the title of POW Eddy would have become Duke of Cornwall in 1901. This is the subsidiary title of the heir to the throne and the title of Duke of Clarence and Avondale would have gone back to the Crown and not been continued.

This is what happened when Victoria died to George, Prince Eddy's surviving brother, and in fact the King Edward VII for one reason or another delayed the Prince of Wales title for quite some time.

George ceased being Duke of York and became Duke of Cornwall after his grandmother's death. Queen Victoria, for reasons best known to herself, didn't give her own second son the title of Duke of York, he became Duke of Edinburgh! George gave his own second son the title of Duke of York. He was Queen Elizabeth II's father.

Harry won't become Duke of York because Prince Andrew, the Queen's second son holds that title and he's still alive and healthy. Prince Harry doesnt have a Dukedom yet so he remains Prince Harry of Wales. Probably when he marries he will be given a Dukedom. The speculation is the Dukedom of Sussex.
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Old 12-07-2014, 12:43 AM
GUT GUT is offline
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I think that there has only been one Duke of Sussex, being the son of George III and if am not mistaken he was a long way down the line of succession.

I may be wrong but I seem to recall that there was speculation that William may have been given that title but was made duke of Cambridge instead.
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Old 12-07-2014, 01:45 AM
Rosella Rosella is offline
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Yes, Augustus was the sixth son of George III, who had a very large family! The Press speculated that Harry would be made Duke of Sussex in the future. They're contemplating the headlines they can make out of the last three letters, considering Harry's reputation with his girlfriends!
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Old 12-07-2014, 02:01 AM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosella View Post
Yes, Augustus was the sixth son of George III, who had a very large family! The Press speculated that Harry would be made Duke of Sussex in the future. They're contemplating the headlines they can make out of the last three letters, considering Harry's reputation with his girlfriends!
Thanks for that, i just could recall Augustus' name, because I kept thinking no that's Earnest Augustus.
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Old 12-07-2014, 01:52 PM
Mayerling Mayerling is offline
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Boy, I was about to write a long discussion on this last night, but had second thoughts.

George III had seven sons and three daughters who lived long enough to become adults. Besides the Prince of Wales (nicknamed "Prinny" or "Florizel, and later Prince Regent and then George IV), the sons were the Duke of York (later General in Chief of the Army), Duke of Clarence (yes - the name was not always unlucky), Duke of Kent, Duke of Cumberland, Duke of Cambridge, Duke of Sussex. I believe the girls remained Princesses.
All the boys had offspring, but only four had legitimate offspring that survived: the Prince of Wales had a daughter Princess Charlotte; the Duke of Kent had a daughter, Princess Victoria; the Duke of Cumberland had a son, George, and the Duke of Cambridge also had a son named George.

Princess Charlotte married Leopold of Saxe-Coburg Gotha, and they had a baby who died in childbirth (as, unfortunately, did Charlotte) in 1817. Leopold eventually married again and (in 1830) was made King of the newly formed kingdom of Belgium - which his family has ruled ever since. William, Duke of Clarence was married to Princess Adelaide (whom the city in Australia is named for). They tried to have children but only had still-borns.
[Oddly enough William has descendants through his eleven illegitimate children by an actress who was his mistress.] But William was George's heir to the throne. As Duke of Clarence he served briefly in the Cabinet as First Lord of the Admiralty, but in 1830 he became King William IV (known as "the Sailor King" or "Silly Billy"). A popular man he proves that being Duke of Clarence did not mean you were unlucky.

The 5th brother was Ernest Augustus Duke of Cumberland. He was not particularly liked, as he was an extreme reactionary (head of the Orange Lodges) and was widely suspected of murdering his valet De Selis at St. James Palace in 1810 (there still is some cloudiness about this event, but most historians feel that De Selis, who was a Catholic, tried the kill the bigoted Duke and then committed suicide). Ernest did marry and had a son George.

When William IV died in 1837 English people know that his niece (by his fourth brother Edward, Duke of Kent) Victoria became Queen of Great Britain. What they don't always know is that due to her sex she lost a kingdom. The Hanovarians (1714-1837) not only ruled the British isles but were monarch of continental land too - the German state of Hanover. But the Constitution of Hanover turned down female rulers (unlike Great Britain). So the Kingdom of Hanover went to Ernest Augustus, the next male heir of William IV. Ernest would have preferred to have all five kindoms (Britain's four and Hanover) and would be a pain in the neck to his niece whenever he visited about matters of court precedent. In fact, in 1840, when Edward Oxford made the first assassination attempt on Victoria, there were widespread rumors that it was a plot by Ernest to get rid of his niece before she gave birth to any child. Ernest ruled Hanover with an iron hand, not caring for democracy. However in terms of improving roads, health conditions, etc. he was quite good. When he died in 1851 he was truly mourned. His son George became King. George, unfortunately, became blind. Because he sided with Austria in it's conflict with Prussia in 1866, the Prussians marched into Hanover and took over the country. George reverted to Duke of Cumberland. However (there is always an however in history), the Cumberlands stayed in Germany, and married into German aristocracy. In World War I they served the Kaiser's army. The British Government took away he title of Duke of Cumberland from the family. There were fitfall attempts between the Royal Family and ex-Cumberlands to make up in the inter-war years, but they did not work. They were worsened in World War II when the Cumberlands served again in the German army.
This saga actually has a happy ending. As the two surviving legitimate strands of the family of George III, by the 1970s all was forgiven, and Cumberlands were invited to visit their royal now Windsor relatives again. The current head of the family is married to the daughter of the late Prince Rainier and Princess Grace Kelly of Monoco.

The Duke of Cambridge was the sixth son of George the III. His son was also George, and (upon the father's death) became George, the 2nd Duke of Cambridge. He would be the General-in-Chief of the British armies for his cousin Victoria through most of her reign. He died in 1904 without any male heir. The title became extinct.

The Duke of Sussex never had any legitimate children.

I will spare this quasi-historical/genealogical review for us all, with only one point. It was mentioned that Victoria did not give her second son, Alfred, the title, Duke of York. I suspect she hoped her oldest son "Bertie", when he settled down and married, would have more than one son, and she thought York would be good for the second boy. So Alfred became Duke of Edinburgh. He is best recalled for being stabbed while on a tour of the Australian colonies, at Melbourne, in 1868. He survived, but the madman who stabbed him was executed because the Prime Minister of Victoria insisted it was a Fenian plot (it wasn't). Alfred married and had one son and several daughters. He enjoyed music, and Sir Arthur Sullivan would give him music lessons. Then, in the 1870s, his uncle died. This was the older brother of Albert, and was Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, which was near Belgium. This title could only be held by males, and Alfred was the nearest legitimate male to his uncle (Bertie rejected being next because of the primogeniture rules of the Duchy). Alfred became (for the rest of his life) the Duke of Saxe Coburg Gotha. Under normal circumstances the title would have gone to Alfred's son. But in 1899 the boy killed himself. Apparently the boy fell in love with a servant, and his parents vehemently objected to such a match. So he shot himself. Both parents became distraught and blamed each other. For Alfred it was the end. He died in 1900, and the British Coburg Duchy died with him (since his daughters could not inherit it).

Sorry for the length.

Jeff
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