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  #111  
Old 07-19-2018, 02:10 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Foot and Kinnock were never voted into office and, if memory serves, Callaghan only became PM because Wilson resigned. The only election he took part in as leader he lost to The Witch.
I think Dave's point was that the reason for Thatcher winning three elections was not so much due to people getting things wrong, but because of the perceived quality of the opposition. I say "perceived quality" because Foot and Kinnock were basically decent politicians whose public profiles were tarnished by the press and popular media; Foot as a doddery donkey-jacket-wearing old duffer, Kinnock as a "Welsh windbag" etc. The 1980s were arguably the birth of the modern era of British politics, where superficiality and populist appeal started to become more important than integrity and intelligence.
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  #112  
Old 07-19-2018, 03:24 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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I think Dave's point was that the reason for Thatcher winning three elections was not so much due to people getting things wrong, but because of the perceived quality of the opposition. I say "perceived quality" because Foot and Kinnock were basically decent politicians whose public profiles were tarnished by the press and popular media; Foot as a doddery donkey-jacket-wearing old duffer, Kinnock as a "Welsh windbag" etc. The 1980s were arguably the birth of the modern era of British politics, where superficiality and populist appeal started to become more important than integrity and intelligence.
Thanks for pointing that out Gareth and apologies to Dave for misunderstanding his post

I agree with your points about Kinn0ck and Foot though. They were never going to be pin-up boys for the smooth talking modern politician. Hence Blair. One of the major differences between say Foot and Trump though were that Foot was a very intelligent man and Trump obviously isnít and Foot was a very decent man as you say and Trump is.....well.

I get the impression that the wheels are coming off the Trump bandwagon though. I canít see it ending well.
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  #113  
Old 07-20-2018, 03:43 AM
Graham Graham is offline
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I think what did for Kinnock's chances was the US-style Rally in Sheffield, with his repeated yells (in his Valleys accent) of "Awwwl R-i-i-i-i-ght!" Not what we Brits wish to see and hear in our senior politicos. I rather feel he might have got in had it not been for that huge PR mistake, and I rather feel in addition (and I'm supporter of Labour) that he may well have made a good PM.

Blair got in basically because the electorate saw the Tory party as tired, listless, and knackered, especially John Major, he of the very little personality but huge love of cricket. Unfortunately, Major was backed up (?) by more than a few genuine oddballs who were never going to do him any or the country any favours. Cf: Boris Johnson.

Had Blair chosen a deputy PM other than Gorgeous Gordon he might have done a lot better, but Brown was never going to cut it with his radical approach.

However, compared with Donald, all the above mentioned were paragons of constitutional probity. And had proper hair.

Graham
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  #114  
Old 07-20-2018, 05:49 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by Graham View Post
I think what did for Kinnock's chances was the US-style Rally in Sheffield, with his repeated yells (in his Valleys accent) of "Awwwl R-i-i-i-i-ght!" Not what we Brits wish to see and hear in our senior politicos. I rather feel he might have got in had it not been for that huge PR mistake, and I rather feel in addition (and I'm supporter of Labour) that he may well have made a good PM.

Blair got in basically because the electorate saw the Tory party as tired, listless, and knackered, especially John Major, he of the very little personality but huge love of cricket. Unfortunately, Major was backed up (?) by more than a few genuine oddballs who were never going to do him any or the country any favours. Cf: Boris Johnson.

Had Blair chosen a deputy PM other than Gorgeous Gordon he might have done a lot better, but Brown was never going to cut it with his radical approach.

However, compared with Donald, all the above mentioned were paragons of constitutional probity. And had proper hair.

Graham
Who could forget one of the cringeist moments ever seen in U.K. politics.

https://youtu.be/ROKXlvYMKQc
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  #115  
Old 07-20-2018, 06:28 AM
Graham Graham is offline
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Quote:
Who could forget one of the cringeist moments ever seen in U.K. politics
Buttock-clenchingly embarrassing, wasn't it?

By the way, I meant to say in my post I'm NO supporter of Labour. What a mistake-a to make-a.

Graham
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  #116  
Old 07-20-2018, 07:37 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Buttock-clenchingly embarrassing, wasn't it?

By the way, I meant to say in my post I'm NO supporter of Labour. What a mistake-a to make-a.

Graham
Iíve pretty much given up on politics. Iíve been a lifelong Labour voter though. The next General Election might be the first time that I donít bother to vote.
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  #117  
Old 07-20-2018, 08:44 AM
Graham Graham is offline
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Iíve pretty much given up on politics. Iíve been a lifelong Labour voter though. The next General Election might be the first time that I donít bother to vote.
I've never voted Labour in my life, but I was tempted to vote for Blair and New Labour in 1997 as he seemed to be a breath of fresh air after tired and tiresome Tory governments. Unfortunately, after a promising start, Blair out-Toried the Tories.

Graham
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  #118  
Old 07-20-2018, 09:15 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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I've never voted Labour in my life, but I was tempted to vote for Blair and New Labour in 1997 as he seemed to be a breath of fresh air after tired and tiresome Tory governments. Unfortunately, after a promising start, Blair out-Toried the Tories.

Graham
I think that Brown was a bigger disappointment for me. I think that heís basically a decent man who wanted to make things better but his poisonous fall out with Blair and any number of character defects tended to outweigh his good points. Also he was never great in front of camera which, unfortunately, is important these days.

Trump really stands alone in terms of arrogance, lack of intelligence, dangerousness, lack of statesmanship etc. I think that the penny is starting to drop though. A second term is unthinkable.
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  #119  
Old 07-20-2018, 11:16 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Trump really stands alone in terms of arrogance, lack of intelligence, dangerousness, lack of statesmanship etc. I think that the penny is starting to drop though. A second term is unthinkable.
As ridiculous as this so-called president is, what should be more worrying to average Americans is that 30+ million voters think just like him, and too many Republicans in Gov. are prepared to lie to defend him.

Comrade Trump can be got rid of by the Dem's just turning out en-mass. Not so the Trump supporters, they will be around a lot longer. And they could put another half-wit in the Whitehouse in the future.
America's problems go far deeper that this idiot of a president. He is a symptom of many underlying problems.
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  #120  
Old 07-20-2018, 10:23 PM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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I didn't vote for Trump, but I agree with your American friend's assessment of him, Herlock.

Re Trump voters thinking just like him, I hope not! Read recently that a journalist spoke to three Michigan voters who had supported Trump. Two of the three said they wouldn't vote for him again, the third stuck with him. What if that loss of two-thirds for Trump happens nation-wide?

Also read that there may be a realignment between the parties, as suburbs turn out more Democratic voters, while Republicans continue to win rural, blue-collar workers in more traditional industries. Larger cities in bigger states will indeed get more voters for Democrats, while the Republicans are likely to win smaller states with fewer electoral votes.

Still early days, as you Brits say.

Re the Helsinki debacle, and the staggering news that Trump invited his pal Vlad to visit D.C.-- I am a Baby Boomer, we were raised during the Cold War and we all knew The Soviets were the enemies of The Free World, led by Uncle Sam. This is too much for my brain to take, hence my addiction to kitten videos...
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Last edited by Pcdunn : 07-20-2018 at 10:25 PM. Reason: Spelling error
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