Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Tumblety, Francis: Patterns of behavior and Tumblety - by Varqm 13 minutes ago.
Tumblety, Francis: Patterns of behavior and Tumblety - by Varqm 21 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Batman 3 hours ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by harry 4 hours ago.
Tumblety, Francis: Patterns of behavior and Tumblety - by Hercule Poirot 4 hours ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by MrBarnett 4 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - (95 posts)
Non-Fiction: Jack and the Thames Torso Murders: A New Ripper? - (22 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim? - (13 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: The Bucks Row Project Summary Report. - (6 posts)
Tumblety, Francis: Patterns of behavior and Tumblety - (4 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Jack the Ripper learned don't eviscerate before you exsanguinate - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

View Poll Results: Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?
Yes 64 83.12%
No 9 11.69%
Undecided 4 5.19%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #831  
Old Today, 04:43 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,359
Default

In the Chicago Tribune on October 7th the following was published;

"I learned today from a Scotland Yard man working on the case that the mysterious American who was here a few months ago offering money for specimens of the parts taken from the bodies of the victims has been discovered. He is a reputable physician in Philadelphia with a large practice, who was over here preparing a medical work on specific diseases. He went to King's College and Middlesex Hospitals and asked for specimens, and merely said he was willing to pay well if he could not get them otherwise. The statement that he offered £20 each or named any other large sum seems to be a delusion of the Coroner. These facts were given the police by an eminent London physician, who saw a great deal of the Philadelphian when he was here, but would only divulge the information on a written guarantee from Sir Charles Warren that neither his name nor the name of the physician in question should be given to the public. He said the doctor had gone back to America, and his mission here was purely legitimate.

An American who used to live in New York keeps a herb shop now in the Whitechapel district. A detective called at his place this week and asked him if he had sold any unusual compound of herbs to a customer since August. Similar inquiries were made at other shops in the neighborhood."

To me this sounds like a legitimate event. I also found it interesting that the police were looking at herb shops, perhaps to see if there were some that could subdue someone without leaving visible or scent traces.

I think the recent posts concerning the possibility of a black market willing to pay big for organs is unlikely, as has been mentioned there were lots of people dying each year without any traceable relatives. And burial space in London was scarce even then. Between Paris and London alone we have armies of the dead, centuries worth. Getting access to those organs had legal means.

I think this argument is one of the most reasonable when considering if the organs were actually removed at the mortuary Trevor, there was no great monetary value to any organs they might take, and, immense risks. That would return us to someone taking them as trophies, in which case I would think the murderer himself would be the most likely man to claim them.

The organs were reported to have been taken from the victims onsite, and I think that can give us some valuable information about the skill-sets of the killer, or just the knife skills perhaps. It would suggests someone very familiar with sharp knives, most likely, in their workplace. I wish they could have differentiated blood samples, even if he had such skills he may have slit himself accidentally. I wonder, do any "legitimate suspects" have injuries when they are detained?
__________________
Michael Richards
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #832  
Old Today, 05:15 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 4,427
Default

One of the big issues here is one which pops up time and time again. It is the misuse and understanding of the term "Medical Research" , used so often by those who have no real understanding of what it means, or how it is and was conducted.

Time and time again it is used in terms that are closer to Mary Shelly, than to real medical research.
Let's be clear, damaged and decayed organs were of no use at all for any medical research, and would also be of limited use even in teaching.

However the mantra of medical research gets trotted out time after time, with no supporting evidence that any such research was taking place in the UK, which would required the uterus, in addition of course if we use the C5, that organ is only taken in 40% of cases. If we add Tabram and Mackenzie it is less than 30% .

There appears to be no provable argument that these organs were specifically targeted for research purposes.
Trevor who is the main supporter of this idea, is of course fully entitled to put the idea forward. However at present he has not been able to establish that a market for damaged uteri existed.

Steve

Last edited by Elamarna : Today at 05:22 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #833  
Old Today, 03:35 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 211
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
One of the big issues here is one which pops up time and time again. It is the misuse and understanding of the term "Medical Research" , used so often by those who have no real understanding of what it means, or how it is and was conducted.

Time and time again it is used in terms that are closer to Mary Shelly, than to real medical research.
Let's be clear, damaged and decayed organs were of no use at all for any medical research, and would also be of limited use even in teaching.

However the mantra of medical research gets trotted out time after time, with no supporting evidence that any such research was taking place in the UK, which would required the uterus, in addition of course if we use the C5, that organ is only taken in 40% of cases. If we add Tabram and Mackenzie it is less than 30% .

There appears to be no provable argument that these organs were specifically targeted for research purposes.
Trevor who is the main supporter of this idea, is of course fully entitled to put the idea forward. However at present he has not been able to establish that a market for damaged uteri existed.

Steve
I agree. Though of course the bigger market would have been medical schools for teaching purposes and we do know that there was significant growth of medical schools in the nineteenth century and cadavers were in short supply. I don't think damaged organs would have been particularly useful, nor do I think the missing organs made their way to medical schools, but a better bet than medical research I think.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #834  
Old Today, 03:47 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,805
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
Sure, not the general public, but how would a thief even begin to sell organs on the black market if they were robbing them from the morgue?
In my case, it was the killer who took the organs.

My comment was with reference to a theory from around 2000, about 18 years ago. That the killer might be medically trained, but not licensed, so was not a member of the BMA.
Therefore, he would be unable to obtain organs for study.

I came across a few stories about European doctors who emigrated to England in the 19th century but could not obtain a license to practice.
I had to wonder if this obstacle could have lead to a motive.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #835  
Old Today, 03:59 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,221
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
One of the big issues here is one which pops up time and time again. It is the misuse and understanding of the term "Medical Research" , used so often by those who have no real understanding of what it means, or how it is and was conducted.

Time and time again it is used in terms that are closer to Mary Shelly, than to real medical research.
Let's be clear, damaged and decayed organs were of no use at all for any medical research, and would also be of limited use even in teaching.

However the mantra of medical research gets trotted out time after time, with no supporting evidence that any such research was taking place in the UK, which would required the uterus, in addition of course if we use the C5, that organ is only taken in 40% of cases. If we add Tabram and Mackenzie it is less than 30% .

There appears to be no provable argument that these organs were specifically targeted for research purposes.
Trevor who is the main supporter of this idea, is of course fully entitled to put the idea forward. However at present he has not been able to establish that a market for damaged uteri existed.

Steve
Organs for Medical research includes medical schools for teaching purposes incorporates all organs as you would expect. I simply said that having regard to the uterus being common to females that would make it more of a valuable commodity.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #836  
Old Today, 04:45 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,660
Default

It's hard to imagine someone taking organs with the intent of selling them without a buyer already lined up. I just can't see a guy standing on the street saying "hey, I got organs here. Female organs." On the other hand, it would seem to me that if someone were smart enough to be a doctor that he would have realized that the police had considered this angle and that this probably was not a good time to be engaging in this practice. They would also be taking an enormous risk if the killer talked and spilled the beans on who he was working for. Still there are always people willing to take risks.

c.d.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #837  
Old Today, 04:57 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,221
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
It's hard to imagine someone taking organs with the intent of selling them without a buyer already lined up. I just can't see a guy standing on the street saying "hey, I got organs here. Female organs." On the other hand, it would seem to me that if someone were smart enough to be a doctor that he would have realized that the police had considered this angle and that this probably was not a good time to be engaging in this practice. They would also be taking an enormous risk if the killer talked and spilled the beans on who he was working for. Still there are always people willing to take risks.

c.d.
I don’t know where this idea of A thief stealing organs to sell keeps
coming from.

Bona fide medical persons from bona fide medical facilities for bona fide reasons medical research and teaching medical students

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #838  
Old Today, 05:17 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,221
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Let's be clear, damaged and decayed organs were of no use at all for any medical research, and would also be of limited use even in teaching.

Trevor who is the main supporter of this idea, is of course fully entitled to put the idea forward. However at present he has not been able to establish that a market for damaged uteri existed.

Steve
Chapman had her uterus with the fallopian tubes removed undamaged.

Eddowes had her kidney removed undamaged
Eddowes had her uterus fully removed with the exception of one small piece. I doubt that would have rendered that organ unfit for any research.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.