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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #1  
Old 10-23-2018, 03:11 PM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Default Efforts in the wrong area ?

We often hear the Carmarthen/Caernarfon mention of Barnett .
This is from press reports but the official inquest version is Caernarfonshire .
Most previous efforts have concentrated on Carmarthen due to the mention of her going to Cardiff after there .
But there are press reports of Barnett saying she went from Limerick to Dublin and then onto Wales .
Well from Dublin you go to Anglesey then into the mainland (caernarfonshire ) or you get a longer ferry over to Liverpool .
From Cork you may go to South Wales
But from Dublin you don't .
And for anyone unfamiliar with Wales the trek from North to South isn't an easy one even today .
Maybe more efforts should have been concentrated on the north ?
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Old 10-23-2018, 11:36 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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And for anyone unfamiliar with Wales the trek from North to South isn't an easy one even today
True, which is why her ending up in Cardiff from a base in Caernarfon(shire) would be difficult to explain. Most migrants from North Wales tend to gravitate towards Liverpool, not Cardiff. The vast majority of coalmines and iron works, both intrinsic to Kelly's story, were in the South, which was also where most 19th century Irish immigrants settled.
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Old 10-24-2018, 12:21 AM
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I'd also observe that the Dublin story is reported in very few newspapers - so far, I've only found it in The Star of 10th Nov - and that most say that her family left Limerick for Wales. It was also reported that the Limerick Police had been engaged to make local enquiries, and it's perhaps significant that the most important Irish paper, The Irish Times, was published in Dublin but seems to make no mention of the Dublin connection.
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Old 10-24-2018, 12:41 AM
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I can't disagree with any of that Gareth .
Just a point though that there were ironworks in the Caernarfon area ( waunfawr if I remember right ,was one) and the fact that at the inquest there seemed no ambiguity then we could consider that the Cardiff part may be wrong ?
Could just as easily be Wrexham / Chester ?
Further why go from Carmarthen to Cardiff anyway when Swansea is down the road ?
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Old 10-24-2018, 01:15 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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I can't disagree with any of that Gareth .
Just a point though that there were ironworks in the Caernarfon area (waunfawr if I remember right ,was one)
Indeed, but there weren't that many ironworks up north, and few coalmines.
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and the fact that at the inquest there seemed no ambiguity then we could consider that the Cardiff part may be wrong ?
The Cardiff part has certain elements which ring true, or at least plausible. For one, she had family there; a cousin, at least, which might imply that at least two branches of the Kelly family had upped sticks and moved to Wales (a single cousin "flying solo" in Cardiff seems unlikely on the face of it). There was far more scope for two branches of a family like the Kellys to emigrate to South Wales, where there were much better prospects of employment than the North.

It was said that she'd led a "bad life" with her cousin, which we can take to mean prostitution. Of course, one could lead a "bad life" anywhere, but there'd have been a greater opportunity for two girls to do so in a large docklands city like Cardiff than in less populous conurbations like the landlocked Chester and Wrexham.

There's also the detail of her spending several months in a Cardiff infirmary. Not in the least conclusive, of course, as there were infirmaries everywhere. However, Cardiff Infirmary was the biggest and most established in Wales.

Finally, Joe Barnett mentioned Cardiff more than once in his testimony and, in response to the question "After she left Cardiff did she come direct to London?", Barnett gave the straight answer "Yes", which seems quite conclusive.
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Further why go from Carmarthen to Cardiff anyway when Swansea is down the road ?
True, but Cardiff was always the bigger lure, and still is; more opportunities, more money, more accommodation... and more Irish expats!
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Old 10-24-2018, 02:26 AM
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All a case of weeding out what , if any at all , is true as none of it is fact as we know .
Cousin in Cardiff is no more fact than Caernarfon or Dublin in any of this .
I suspect that all avenues are possible but IF Cardiff is true then Cwmavon may be a good place to look .
Sounds more like Caernarfon (carnarvon) to an English person
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Old 10-24-2018, 02:53 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Cousin in Cardiff is no more fact than Caernarfon or Dublin in any of this
Indeed so. Having said that, why invent a cousin, especially? It would have been enough for Kelly to have said that her family had moved to Cardiff, if they were fictional.
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I suspect that all avenues are possible but IF Cardiff is true then Cwmavon may be a good place to look .
Sounds more like Caernarfon (carnarvon) to an English person
Don't forget that "th" (as in "then") is quite often mispronounced as "v", or could be misheard as such very easily. Whether misheard or mispronounced, "Carmarthun" could become "Carmarvun" very easily, and the latter sounds almost exactly like "Carnarvun" (I use "-un" because that's how the endings of Carnarvon and Carmarthen are usually pronounced).

That said, I lean slightly more towards Cwmavon, if only because of the associations with the iron, steel and coal industries that both villages of that name (the one near Port Talbot and the other in Gwent) share.
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Old 10-24-2018, 03:57 AM
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Don't forget that "th" (as in "then") is quite often mispronounced as "v", or could be misheard as such very easily. Whether misheard or mispronounced, "Carmarthun" could become "Carmarvun" very easily, and the latter sounds almost exactly like "Carnarvun" (I use "-un" because that's how the endings of Carnarvon and Carmarthen are usually pronounced).
Only issue I have there is how fluent Welsh someone may be .
If she grew up in Caernarfon she would have had no choice other than to learn the language quickly and pick up the accent in which case she would pronounce it
Kai ur nah Vaughn

Carmarthen I suspect would have been
Car maaar then

But to an English speaking person then yes the v in both instances
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