Stabbed in the throat...

[emlodik]

That must have been horrible. A slit throat kills petty quickly, but being stabbed... By the way, were her genitals attacked as well? That would make Martha Tabram an even more likely candidate of being a Ripper victim. Even more likely than Elizabeth Stride, at least in my eyes.

[Sam Flynn]

That must have been horrible. A slit throat kills petty quickly, but being stabbed... By the way, were her genitals attacked as well?

They were - but more than 30 of her 39 wounds were inflicted elsewhere on her body, with the throat sustaining proportionally more wounds than other areas.

[Jon Guy]

They were - but more than 30 of her 39 wounds were inflicted elsewhere on her body, with the throat sustaining proportionally more wounds than other areas.

Similarly to Tabram, Nichols was stabbed twice in the genital area, and McKenzie once.

[Sam Flynn]

Similarly to Tabram, Nichols was stabbed twice in the genital area, and McKenzie once.

Wood and trees, Jon. Tabram's genital stab wounds were vastly outnumbered by those inflicted elsewhere, especially in her throat. Perhaps her killer had a cervical fixation of a different kind

[FrankO]

Wood and trees, Jon. Tabram's genital stab wounds were vastly outnumbered by those inflicted elsewhere, especially in her throat.

I wonder if we're really talking wood and trees here, Gareth. First of all, Tabram was killed before Nichols and even long before McKenzie and therefore, need not have been attacked in generally the same manner as the following victims. Secondly, Tabram was't stabbed in her private part, but she sustained a 3-inch cut there - a fact that I wouldn't just wanna sweep under the carpet.

I agree with you that the relatively large number of stabs to the relatively small throat area is striking - has always been striking to me.

All the best,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Frank,

Secondly, Tabram was't stabbed in her private part, but she sustained a 3-inch cut there

As a man, I should perhaps show more solidarity to those of my sex, but I can't help pointing out that three inches isn't very long A stab-wound, although qualitatively different I grant you, wouldn't have been that much less in length - compared to, say, a "ripping" of the abdomen, or a tongue of flesh sliced out of a thigh.

[Uncle Jack]

I have always thought that Tabram was strangled before she was stabbed. Isn't it possible that the Ripper strangled Tabram, rendering her unconcious. Then, lowering her onto the stairwell, thinking she was dead, he raised her clothing above her waist, intending on mutilating her, and starting to cut her private part, getting about 3-inches into the cut. Then, all of a sudden, she awoke, surprising the Ripper, who panicked and went into a stabbing frenzy to kill her before she screamed and drew attention.

This has always been my personal opinion anyway.

Regards,

Adam

[Suzi]

Look chaps- speaking as a girlie-
Right one good slash (!) to the throat would do for you !! ( The abdominal/genital stabs/wounds et. al.- seem to have been served upon the victims purely for the gratification of the killer -for whatever reason).

The' 'Throat Slash/Strangulation',(probably started with an "Ello Darlin'' cuddle and am arm around the shoulder/neck) as a 'shut up' I reckon- so that for whatever reason ,following that ,the murderer could carry on with his little 'bits and pieces' (! )

- Now, whether that happened to Annie or a Kate is open to debate (no rhyme intended there) -and then of course we get into Mary country! Hmmmm best not to on this thread!!.

[As to Annie/Cadoche*- all I can say is -what a shame.... Note to self 'Next time you're in the lavvy and feel nosey-be/do it!'* When it says he was 'young' I wonder quite how young that was?]

Mind you a quick slash -(Cut- not a Cadoche!!) 'shut up' as a preface could explain Liz I suppose ---- as he lowered her into the darkness of Dutfield's Yard- clip clop ..clip clop....poke....poke........Aaaaaaaagh!........... .................................................. ........................runawaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaay etc etc

Of course,a little while later- Kates little facial 'decorations' are something else again!!! , given the time! Time's of the importance and Sam's your man!

Waiting for a Mr O' Reilley to disconnect my internet at any moment-mind you I have been waiting all day!!! (rant rant!)

Suz xx

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,As a man, I should perhaps show more solidarity to those of my sex, but I can't help pointing out that three inches isn't very long A stab-wound, although qualitatively different I grant you, wouldn't have been that much less in length - compared to, say, a "ripping" of the abdomen, or a tongue of flesh sliced out of a thigh.

Perhaps it's really a matter of nuance, but with the Ripper having an interest in cutting the private parts of his victims, I see the single cut in Tabram's case, however short or shallow, as different (more deliberate) and more important than stabs.

The best!
Frank

[FrankO]

I have always thought that Tabram was strangled before she was stabbed. Isn't it possible that the Ripper strangled Tabram, rendering her unconcious. Then, lowering her onto the stairwell, thinking she was dead, he raised her clothing above her waist, intending on mutilating her, and starting to cut her private part, getting about 3-inches into the cut. Then, all of a sudden, she awoke, surprising the Ripper, who panicked and went into a stabbing frenzy to kill her before she screamed and drew attention.

Hi Adam,

Except for the strangulation bit, I have a similar view. I see Tabram's killer - if it was the Ripper - as exploding into fierce anger as a result of something Tabram said, therefore stabbing her in the throat until she collapsed. Thinking that he'd killed her, he thought he might just as well see if he could act out the fantasy he had while she was laying there at his disposal. So, he lifted her skirts and started to cut. But then it turned out she still lived (maybe she moved, maybe she gurgled), he panicked and went into a stabbing frenzy and got the hell out of there before he could be caught in the act.

The best,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

I see the single cut in Tabram's case, however short or shallow, as different (more deliberate) and more important than stabs.

Could not a glancing stab-wound plough a furrow of 3 inches in extent, though, Frank?

Out of interest, where is it recorded that there was a cut (as opposed to a stab) in Tabram's genital area? I've had a rummage around, but so far have only found references to stabs and the "lower abdomen" - nothing as specific as a 3" cut in the genitals.

[FrankO]

Could not a glancing stab-wound plough a furrow of 3 inches in extent, though, Frank?

Anything's possible, Gareth, it just seems a bit unlikely to me that it wasn't a deliberate cut.

Out of interest, where is it recorded that there was a cut (as opposed to a stab) in Tabram's genital area? I've had a rummage around, but so far have only found references to stabs and the "lower abdomen" - nothing as specific as a 3" cut in the genitals.

It's in Sugden's new paperback edition, on page 17: "The lower portion of the body was penetrated in one place, the wound being three inches in length and one in depth... there was a deal of blood between the legs, which were seperated. Death was due to hemorrhage and loss of blood." So, it doesn't explicitly say that it was a cut, but again, it seems unlikely that it wasn't. In the notes section it says this was taken from the: Deposition of Dr Timothy Robert Killeen, 9 August 1888, ibid.

All the best,
Frank

[c.d.]

Hi Frank,

When did Sugden's new edition come out? Does it contain significantly more information?

c.d.

[Suzi]

Hi all~
Fascinating re Martha
BUT the letter from E Ellisdon.Inspector H Div 10th Aug 1888 does end with the tantalising 'A description was circulated in 116 Infn.7.8.88 - and the body was photographed same date,but up to present date has not been identified...Two copies of photograph attached' -TWO!TWO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hmmmmmmm

Although I'd like to get Martha into this- there's a strange brutality,attached to some sort of prostitution or something along those lines that doesn't work...Pearly Poll nothwithstanding- but there's a lot here that doesn't fit in with the rather 'comfortable' 'Canonical 5'- -- IF it were to 'end' with Mary -the escalation wouldn't ring true would it!

There's always that little bit of 'it wasn't the same man/men' that twiddles around in my mind- I'm sure I'm not alone in this!

Suz xx

[Sam Flynn]

It's in Sugden's new paperback edition, on page 17: "The lower portion of the body was penetrated in one place, the wound being three inches in length and one in depth... there was a deal of blood between the legs, which were seperated. Death was due to hemorrhage and loss of blood." So, it doesn't explicitly say that it was a cut

Thanks for that, Frank. Sod's Law - I didn't look in Sugden!

I would point out that "the lower portion of the body" still doesn't state explicitly that the 3" wound was in Tabram's genitals, although it might easily have been euphemism. Note, however, that Killeen does say "penetrated", rather than a "cut" as such. Perhaps it was a stab where the "out-stroak" left a longer wound than the width of the blade itself.