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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Annie Chapman

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  #1  
Old 11-23-2009, 02:57 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Default AC and TOD

Hello. I think the time has come to talk about Annie Chapman's time of death.

Dr G B Phillips testified:

“On Saturday last I was called by the police at 6.20 a.m. to 29, Hanbury-street, and arrived at half-past six. . . Stiffness of the limbs was not marked, but it was commencing.”

When does this rigor mortis commence?

"Rigor mortis refers to the state of a body after death, in which the muscles become stiff. It commences after around 3 hours"
http://www.deathonline.net/decomposi...gor_mortis.htm

So a reasonable TOD would be between 3:30 and 4:00.

Often, the outdoor temperature is cited to account for this discrepancy, but the lowered temperatures had no such effect on Liz and Kate.

Thoughts?

LC
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  #2  
Old 11-23-2009, 03:11 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Look up "cadaveric spasm", or "instantaneous rigidity", Lynn.
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:17 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Note, also, Inspector Chandler's inquest testimony. He was on the scene almost immediately after the body was discovered, and some time before Phillips, and testifies that there were parts of Annie's flesh lying above her shoulder in a pool of blood. If the body had been there for as long as Phillips (initially) estimated, there would have been precious little "pool" left for Chandler to see.
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:33 AM
Chris Chris is offline
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When asked at the inquest about the time of death, Phillips said:
"I should say at least two hours, and probably more; but it is right to say that it was a fairly cold morning, and that the body would be more apt to cool rapidly from its having lost the greater portion of its blood."

I think that makes it clear that his estimate of the time of death was based mainly on the temperature of the body rather than other factors.

Although doctors at that time believed they could make reasonably accurate calculations of the time of death based on body temperature, science has moved on since then, and we know that the estimation of time of death is subject to a lot of uncertainty.

Here are a couple of links to relevant pages on the website of the Centre for Forensic and Legal Medicine at the University of Dundee:
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedi.../timedeath.pdf
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedi...am-upto23C.pdf

I think that if anyone looks at them with an open mind, and considers how accurately Phillips would have been capable of gauging the temperature of the body, and also takes into account all the additional sources of uncertainty, they will agree that the margin of error for his estimate of the time of Chapman's death can't realistically be less than an hour or two.
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:44 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Chris. If GBP is off by an hour, that yields 4:30 AM. At least that's not after daylight.

The best.
LC
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:54 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Sam. GBP was talking about rigor mortis, not another condition. At least, taht's what he said.

I just reread Chandler's testimony. Where does he say pool of blood?

The best.
LC
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  #7  
Old 11-23-2009, 04:01 AM
perrymason
 
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I think Lynn's interest in this question is a valid concern, because the TOD relates to both stories that we generally use as possible Annie sightings or in the case of Cadosche, being heard. Timings are of course the issue between them.

Whether its the "shabby genteel" or "no", both are thought to be possible Chapman based incidents.

Neither take place at around 4:30am.

Best regards all.
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Old 11-23-2009, 04:12 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Mike.

"I think Lynn's interest in this question is a valid concern, because the TOD relates to both stories that we generally use as possible Annie sightings"

Right you are! Consider:

"Well, we KNOW the ripper looked foreign. After all, Mrs. Long said so."

and

"We know the ripper was fearless. After all, he killed AC AFTER sunup."

Compare to:

"The ripper was not after organs. After all, he never took any from Liz."

The best.
LC
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Old 11-23-2009, 10:55 AM
Chris Chris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn cates View Post
Hello Chris. If GBP is off by an hour, that yields 4:30 AM. At least that's not after daylight.
As he saw the body at 6.30, if his two-hour estimate is off by an hour doesn't that bring us to 5.30?
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  #10  
Old 11-23-2009, 12:41 PM
Mascara & Paranoia Mascara & Paranoia is offline
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The only thing I agree with Phillips on is Annie's time of death. The three main witnesses are just too convenient and I can't logically see the Ripper killing Chapman during daylight, however desperate he was. Someone [more reliable] would've seen something.

Long doesn't come forward with her sighting till some time after the death (I can't remember exactly how many days it was if that's what it was); Cadosche conveniently alleviates himself twice and the precise two times that something beyond that fence happens; and the boot-cutting fella, please. Not only was he suspected himself at one point of being involved if memory serves, but also the alleged 'fact' that he just happened to be cutting his boot right where Annie's head should've been is a little bit much to take 100% realistically in addition to the other two witnesses. I'm not one for these kind of theories but isn't it possible that maybe, just maybe, they were after their five minutes of limelight and to get paid for their stories (operative word? )?

Why did no-one see Annie wandering the streets from the time she left the lodgings till the time she was murdered? There's a good two, three hours missing with no further sightings whatsoever. I think it's more likely that the reason being was because she was already lying dead and cooling in that yard as the Ripper's second victim at the time.
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