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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #851  
Old 09-11-2018, 11:07 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
But even if Brown was not aware of the time of her release, he got the Tod almost spot on based on what we now know

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Agreed Trevor,

The question remains however was his estimate based on purely medical evidence? and if so what?

or was it based on a mixture of medical and physical evidence?(like Watkins says she was not there on his previous beat).

If Brown was convinced that the murder took place on site, and he is made aware of Watkins's report, he would of course arrive at what we now consider to be a very close fit, even without ANY medical evidence at all.


Steve
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  #852  
Old 09-11-2018, 12:28 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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I was assuming that while Brown was in the square he may have been told that the body was not there at 1.30 and taken that into account.

I had not assumed the police or Doctor would have been aware of her recent release, for some considerable time.

There really was little medical evidence which would have allowed the Doctor to establish a seemingly pricise TOD on its own.


Steve
Hi El and Jon Guy
while I agree with this for the most part I think the doctors (and the police) would have enough experience with the dead and dying and wounds that they could make pretty good guesses just based on experience. Not technically precise of course or things you really cant quantify.

Take Mary Kelly for example-most thought by the way the body was that she was killed in the middle of the night but Maxwells testimony jacked that all up. but maybe something how the bloodstains looked, how dry they were, what the wounds looked like (or what they smelled like?)-that they knew she was killed much earlier than a daylight morning murder.

Like I said, something based on maybe an accumulation of small details, a hunch, just experience etc. Not enough to technichally precise or to quantify but close enough.

That being said when you have other witness testimony-here three witnesses that dispute the drs TOD I think on the balance you go with the thre witnesses probably being correct in this case.
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Last edited by Abby Normal : 09-11-2018 at 12:40 PM.
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  #853  
Old 09-11-2018, 04:08 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
Cadosch's time of 5.32 records when he passed the Spitalfields Church (Christchurch) which is about a two minute walk from 27 Hanbury Street; presumably, if correct, that means he left home about 5.30am - but as ever the timings can only be seen as approximate.
Thanks for pointing that out Bridewell
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  #854  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:16 PM
drstrange169 drstrange169 is offline
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... Although I would add he had a discrepancy with Mizen and he used a different name.

Both Paul and Xmere had discrepancies with Mizen, that's why Mizen's account is questioned.

Cross used a different name from what?

If the Charles Cross, Pickford's driver, involved in the traffic accident, is the same Charles Cross (something that can't be confirmed yet) then he used the same name when dealing with police and possibly Pickford's. The fact that he also used the name Lechmere on bureaucratic forms is nothing odd for the Victorian period, indeed, it was not even necessarily illegal to use the name Cross at the inquest.

Criminals usually use aliases to avoid detection, this was not what happened in this case. Anybody who read the newspaper could go and knock on his door.

If Charles Lechmere was jtr then everything he did was dodgey, if he wasn't, nothing raised so far is actually out of keeping for an innocent man.
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  #855  
Old 09-11-2018, 11:22 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Agreed Trevor,

The question remains however was his estimate based on purely medical evidence? and if so what?

or was it based on a mixture of medical and physical evidence?(like Watkins says she was not there on his previous beat).

If Brown was convinced that the murder took place on site, and he is made aware of Watkins's report, he would of course arrive at what we now consider to be a very close fit, even without ANY medical evidence at all.


Steve
I personally dont subscribe to the theories that any of the victims were killed elsewhere, and then the bodies dumped afterwards. For me there are to many practical, and logistical reasons to rule these suggestions out.

Eddowes murder is the one murder that an accurate, but not precise time of death can be identified.

Dr Sequeira arrived at 1.55am he stated that life had been extinct no more than 15 mins, which puts the time at approx 1.40am which is dead in line with my belief that the killer was disturbed by Harvey coming down Church passage towards the square giving him time to escape before Watkins came back into the square.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Last edited by Trevor Marriott : 09-11-2018 at 11:31 PM.
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  #856  
Old 09-12-2018, 12:45 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
I personally dont subscribe to the theories that any of the victims were killed elsewhere, and then the bodies dumped afterwards. For me there are to many practical, and logistical reasons to rule these suggestions out.

Eddowes murder is the one murder that an accurate, but not precise time of death can be identified.

Dr Sequeira arrived at 1.55am he stated that life had been extinct no more than 15 mins, which puts the time at approx 1.40am which is dead in line with my belief that the killer was disturbed by Harvey coming down Church passage towards the square giving him time to escape before Watkins came back into the square.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Happy to agree with much of that, however i am prepared to consider the possibility that death took place around 10 minutes earlier. That of course means discarding Lawende and also means Watkins is being economic with the truth(maybe actually in with Morris having a chat).Just ideas but ones which should not be 100% ruled out i think.

Steve
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  #857  
Old 09-12-2018, 01:09 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
The question remains however was his estimate based on purely medical evidence? and if so what?

or was it based on a mixture of medical and physical evidence?(like Watkins says she was not there on his previous beat).
Hi Steve

Dr Brown based his guess on the warmth of the body and no signs of rigor:
The body had been mutilated, and was quite warm - no rigor mortis. The crime must have been committed within half an hour, or certainly within forty minutes from the time when I saw the body.


My point with regard to Chapman, being that Phillips noted she was cold, and rigor had started.
The body was cold, except that there was a certain remaining heat, under the intestines, in the body. Stiffness of the limbs was not marked, but it was commencing.
[Coroner] How long had the deceased been dead when you saw her? - I should say at least two hours, and probably more; but it is right to say that it was a fairly cold morning, and that the body would be more apt to cool rapidly from its having lost the greater portion of its blood.
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  #858  
Old 09-12-2018, 01:52 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drstrange169 View Post
Both Paul and Xmere had discrepancies with Mizen, that's why Mizen's account is questioned.

Cross used a different name from what?

If the Charles Cross, Pickford's driver, involved in the traffic accident, is the same Charles Cross (something that can't be confirmed yet) then he used the same name when dealing with police and possibly Pickford's. The fact that he also used the name Lechmere on bureaucratic forms is nothing odd for the Victorian period, indeed, it was not even necessarily illegal to use the name Cross at the inquest.

Criminals usually use aliases to avoid detection, this was not what happened in this case. Anybody who read the newspaper could go and knock on his door.

If Charles Lechmere was jtr then everything he did was dodgey, if he wasn't, nothing raised so far is actually out of keeping for an innocent man.
Hi Dusty,

Picture the scene. A policeman at Lechmere’s door.

Knock knock. Lechmere opens the door.

Lechmere : Er, can I help you.

Constable : Possibly Sir. Are you Charles Allen Cross.

Lechmere : No. I’m Charles Allen Lechmere.

Constable : oh. Sorry to have bothered you sir. Good day to you..

Lechmere closes the door

Lechmere : It worked!!!
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  #859  
Old 09-12-2018, 02:06 AM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Hi Dusty,

Picture the scene. A policeman at Lechmereís door.

Knock knock. Lechmere opens the door.

Lechmere : Er, can I help you.

Constable : Possibly Sir. Are you Charles Allen Cross.

Lechmere : No. Iím Charles Allen Lechmere.

Constable : oh. Sorry to have bothered you sir. Good day to you..

Lechmere closes the door

Lechmere : It worked!!!

Or

Con: Well Mr Pickford do you employ a Charles Cross of Doveton St, been with you about 20 years

Pick: Nope but a Charles Lechmere who has been with us about that long and lives at 22.

Best disguise of all time.
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  #860  
Old 09-12-2018, 04:00 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Im also probably a bit sympathetic to the "witness" suspects, as I favor hutch and also think these types need more looking into-like Richardson, bowyer, and possibly Barnett.
Hello, Abby.

I can see where you're coming from. Witnesses are connected to the crime and on the surface appear to be regular people, just like serial killers, not mad doctors or tortured artists. I'd be interested to see how many serial killers were initially witnesses. Unless they can help it, serial killers don't tend to loiter around the crime scene ex post facto. Even some of the real schizo ones knew to get while the going was good.

Fisherman believes that the grounds of suspicion against Lechmere are enough to view his subsequent actions through the prism of guilt, as Patrick S would call it. He's a done a commendable job at that, and I admire his tenacity. For me, I don't find there is anywhere near enough incriminating evidence against Lechmere to identify him as a suspect, let alone the killer. 'He could be' isn't exactly a damning indictment. The surname argument is a moot point, as he volunteered his address and workplace, while Mizen had more reason to bend the truth about the exchange that took place between him and the carmen that morning than Lechmere did. And let's presume Lechmere did lie about the PC in Buck's Row, he probably wanted to avoid being late for work and losing his livelihood.
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Last edited by Harry D : 09-12-2018 at 04:14 AM.
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