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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #841  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:50 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
Doc Brown made his call for TOD whilst with the body in Mitre Sq.

When did the police find out about Eddowes being in the Bishopsgate cell ?
It doesn`t matter what time she was found !!
The body could have been dumped there already dead.
I was assuming that while Brown was in the square he may have been told that the body was not there at 1.30 and taken that into account.

I had not assumed the police or Doctor would have been aware of her recent release, for some considerable time.

There really was little medical evidence which would have allowed the Doctor to establish a seemingly pricise TOD on its own.


Steve
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  #842  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:52 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
However, one is left to wonder if those estimates were entirely based on medical evidence, or if input from witnesses played any part, in Mitre Square
the evidence of Watkins may well have influenced him, here the time of discovery may have influenced Philips
But Phillips would be aware that a dead body could have been dumped there at 5.15. So, witness statements must be ignored.


Quote:
Yes I agree, but had he ever had to attend anything like the murder of Chapman?
Good question. I don`t know, probably not like Chapman but he would have dealt with industrial accidents, railway accidents (lots of suicides jumping under trains).
In fact, at his age, Phillips probably spent most of his student days chopping up cadavers and all that weird stuff they were doing in the mid 19th c.
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  #843  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:54 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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exactly El. Although I would add he had a discrepancy with Mizen and he used a different name. both of course probably have an innocent explanation, but flags to me that even need to be explained away.

Im also probably a bit sympathetic to the "witness" suspects, as I favor hutch and also think these types need more looking into-like Richardson, bowyer, and possibly Barnett.
Hi Abby,

yes the issues need to be addressed, and i beleive explanations for both of those you cite are not only availble, but in the case of the discrepancy equally if not more likely than those we have already presented.

Steve
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  #844  
Old 09-11-2018, 09:00 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
I was assuming that while Brown was in the square he may have been told that the body was not there at 1.30 and taken that into account.
No, because the body may have been dumped there already dead.
The police surgeon (I`m guessing) needs to know (as best they can) was the person killed there or dumped there and mutilated.

Quote:
There really was little medical evidence which would have allowed the Doctor to establish a seemingly precise TOD on its own.
But from experience they must have seen enough dead bodies to know approx how long they have been dead.
At least enough to know she had not been killed within the hour, which is the point I`m trying to make.
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  #845  
Old 09-11-2018, 09:04 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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But Phillips would be aware that a dead body could have been dumped there at 5.15. So, witness statements must be ignored.
Disagree I am afraid Jon, I cannot discount witness statements purely on the guess work of Philips, even if those statements taken individual are open to question. togeather with Richardson, they suggest a TOD of after 4.45, and before 5.30.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
Good question. I don`t know, probably not like Chapman but he would have dealt with industrial accidents, railway accidents (lots of suicides jumping under trains).
In fact, at his age, Phillips probably spent most of his student days chopping up cadavers and all that weird stuff they were doing in the mid 19th c.
Its total different, cutting up a cadavers to fresh butchered bodies. The former would norma be embalmed first before students were let loose on them.

Steve
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  #846  
Old 09-11-2018, 09:10 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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No, because the body may have been dumped there already dead.
The police surgeon (I`m guessing) needs to know (as best they can) was the person killed there or dumped there and mutilated.
Not sure i follow your thinking Jon, Brown obviously decided the body was not dumped,, she was killed where she was found, and the body was not there when watkins went round the square at about 1.30.

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Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
But from experience they must have seen enough dead bodies to know approx how long they have been dead.
At least enough to know she had not been killed within the hour, which is the point I`m trying to make.
That the whole point Jon, its pure guess work, it was not based on science but on opinion, which is highly subjective.

I remain unconvinced.

Steve
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  #847  
Old 09-11-2018, 10:11 AM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Hi Herlock - I am going to respond to a point you & Bridewell made over on the 'Annie Chapman Time-of-Death" thread. Cheers.

Last edited by rjpalmer : 09-11-2018 at 10:19 AM.
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  #848  
Old 09-11-2018, 10:13 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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From what medical experts tell us TOD estimation could be wildly wrong due to a variety of factors, even much later than the LVP. This is nothing to do with impugning a doctors reputation or knowledge, itís an accepted fact.

And so, for me, itís much easier to accept witnesses. Yes timings have to be viewed according to the era; accepting that a few minutes here or there are not wildly problematical.

In my suggested timeline the only thing that we have to Ďchangeí is Longís timing from 5.30 to 5.15 - surely not an impossibility. And if you do just that then Richardson, Long and Cadosch all tie in. We donít need to say Ďwell someone must have liedí because we have to accept that Phillips was spot on with his TOD because itís very reasonable to suggest that he might not have been.

Even if we decide that Long lied, Richardson and Cadosch still tie in with Chapman being killed at around 5.20. I have to say that itís very convenient for some to say that someone like Cadosch lied. We have no reason to believe that. We are not, however, calling Dr Phillips a liar. Just that he made an understandable error. Far more likely in my view that Richardson missing a mutilated corpse then failing to understand that a door might have blocked his view of it.
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  #849  
Old 09-11-2018, 10:21 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
Hi Herlock - I am going to respond to a point you & Bridewell made over on the 'Annie Chapman Time-of-Death" thread. Cheers.
Ok RJ,

Iím assuming this means that Iíve messed up in some way.

Iím not worried though, Fish accuses me of that with every post that I make.
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  #850  
Old 09-11-2018, 10:59 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
I was assuming that while Brown was in the square he may have been told that the body was not there at 1.30 and taken that into account.

I had not assumed the police or Doctor would have been aware of her recent release, for some considerable time.

There really was little medical evidence which would have allowed the Doctor to establish a seemingly pricise TOD on its own.


Steve
But even if Brown was not aware of the time of her release, he got the Tod almost spot on based on what we now know

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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