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  #101  
Old 06-28-2018, 09:22 AM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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"It must be admitted that, ordinarily, where there can be
no cross-examination, depositions are not admissible ; but
those taken before the coroner have been said to be an
exception to this general rule"

Aside from clock/watch inaccuracy,as posted before, there was no cross-examination ,that's why an inquest or newspaper report is second best.This is also implied,above,by the 1887 coroners act.
Without cross-examination it's ambiguous.A simple cross-examination to all relevant witnesses like where were you when you last check the time and what was the timepiece would have clarified a lot of things.And more questions to Mizens sighting of the blood would have clarified things further.Cross examination would have undone any conspiracy.
But this was an inquest, with no accused (most cross-examinations are left to him/her since he/she had the right to and had the most to gain), so most witnesses testify to the best of their ability without thinking further about it - from the witness point of view and the coroner,so there will be discrepancies such as times for example.So I agree with Steve.Common sense says so.Also an inquest was for public consumption and I think as a courtesy to the victims (old world values perhaps and/or less murders then),but now inquests generally does not exist,find evidence first enough for a trial and a suspect and only then would there be a trial/something akin to an inquest.

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Last edited by Varqm : 06-28-2018 at 09:31 AM.
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  #102  
Old 06-28-2018, 10:19 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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[quote=Elamarna;451203]I beleive Mizen lied, to cover himself. Technically he did nothing wrong, but the press and public may have roasted him alive. His superiors knew, but has it had no material effect on the inquest, and protected the force as a whole, took no immediate action against him.


If you want pm me, its a major part of my book, so dont want to reveal all in public.

Nice fig tree.

I see that we can disagree and remain not on civil but friendly, thats good.



Steve[/QUOTE

On a practical note when several police officers are involved in the same incident it is normal for them to get their heads together when preparing written statements to make sure that at any future proceedings they are all singing from the same song sheet.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #103  
Old 06-28-2018, 10:27 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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[quote=Trevor Marriott;451206]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
I beleive Mizen lied, to cover himself. Technically he did nothing wrong, but the press and public may have roasted him alive. His superiors knew, but has it had no material effect on the inquest, and protected the force as a whole, took no immediate action against him.


If you want pm me, its a major part of my book, so dont want to reveal all in public.

Nice fig tree.

I see that we can disagree and remain not on civil but friendly, thats good.



Steve[/QUOTE

On a practical note when several police officers are involved in the same incident it is normal for them to get their heads together when preparing written statements to make sure that at any future proceedings they are all singing from the same song sheet.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Thanks for the clarification, Trevor. I was using The Bill as my primary source.
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  #104  
Old 06-28-2018, 10:30 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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[quote=Trevor Marriott;451206]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
I beleive Mizen lied, to cover himself. Technically he did nothing wrong, but the press and public may have roasted him alive. His superiors knew, but has it had no material effect on the inquest, and protected the force as a whole, took no immediate action against him.


If you want pm me, its a major part of my book, so dont want to reveal all in public.

Nice fig tree.

I see that we can disagree and remain not on civil but friendly, thats good.



Steve[/QUOTE

On a practical note when several police officers are involved in the same incident it is normal for them to get their heads together when preparing written statements to make sure that at any future proceedings they are all singing from the same song sheet.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I agree Trevor,

That it seems not to have happened here( between Neil and Mizen) is telling i think.


Steve
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  #105  
Old 09-09-2018, 02:26 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi Steve,

Here's another question that falls under the Mizen banner.

According to official testimony, at 3.45 am Robert Paul was walking up Buck’s Row on his way to work; Charles Cross was standing by Polly's body; PC Neil was discovering Polly’s body; PC Thain was being signalled by PC Neil; and PC Mizen was encountering Cross and Paul 300 yards away at the corner of Bakers Row and Old Montague Street. I've heard all the arguments about public clocks being inaccurate and people not carrying watches, so would appreciate any explanation of how all these people quite independently agreed upon 3.45 am.

Good luck with this one.

Regards,

Simon
Sorry to be a bit late with this. If you were able to look at my old pocket books (long since destroyed sadly) you'd find that a lot of the times entered were rounded to the nearest 5 minutes - I suspect I wasn't alone in this. When Mizen had his conversation with Cross & Paul I imagine that he probably wasn't looking at his watch while he did so (always assuming that he carried one). He certainly couldn't be expected to know (except later) that the time of that conversation might be important. When he later made a record of the conversation he will have recalled that it took place about quarter to four in the morning. It might be instructive (if anyone is really at a loose end!) to go through the various timings given by police officers. Logic would suggest that times ending in 5 or 0 would make up only 20% of the whole - but I'm pretty sure it would be significantly more.
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Last edited by Bridewell : 09-09-2018 at 02:33 PM.
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  #106  
Old 09-10-2018, 11:31 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
Sorry to be a bit late with this. If you were able to look at my old pocket books (long since destroyed sadly) you'd find that a lot of the times entered were rounded to the nearest 5 minutes - I suspect I wasn't alone in this. When Mizen had his conversation with Cross & Paul I imagine that he probably wasn't looking at his watch while he did so (always assuming that he carried one). He certainly couldn't be expected to know (except later) that the time of that conversation might be important. When he later made a record of the conversation he will have recalled that it took place about quarter to four in the morning. It might be instructive (if anyone is really at a loose end!) to go through the various timings given by police officers. Logic would suggest that times ending in 5 or 0 would make up only 20% of the whole - but I'm pretty sure it would be significantly more.
how very true.

just more towards my argument against absolute times, and accepting those given by any as being pricise.


Steve
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  #107  
Old 09-11-2018, 06:33 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
how very true.

just more towards my argument against absolute times, and accepting those given by any as being pricise.


Steve
The only ones I would accept as being in any way precise are those given by a witness likely to have been in possession of a reliable watch and with a clear reason to note the time at the time

- e.g. Blackwell, on arriving at the scene of the Stride murder, "I consulted my watch on my arrival and it was 1.16."

Even that has to take into account the likelihood that every watch and clock in the area was set to a slightly different time to every other.
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Last edited by Bridewell : 09-11-2018 at 06:36 AM.
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  #108  
Old 09-11-2018, 06:37 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
The only ones I would accept as being in any way precise are those given by a witness likely to have been in possession of a reliable watch and with a clear reason to note the time at the time

- e.g. Blackwell, on arriving at the scene of the Stride murder, "I consulted my watch on my arrival and it was 1.16."

Even that has to take into account that every watch and clock in the area was probably set to a slightly different time to every other.
Someone after my own heart, at last


Steve
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  #109  
Old 09-11-2018, 07:25 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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I've just spent about half an hour looking through my copy of "The Ultimate" at times given by police witnesses in (mainly) inquest testimony and also those given by police surgeons and the like.

The vast majority alluded to times as being either at or about something ending in '0' or '5'. I don't pretend that the list is exhaustive but the breakdown of what I found was:


Time ending in:


0 = 24


1 = 1


2 = 2


3 = 2


4 = 1


5 = 13


6 = 1


7 = 0


8 = 2


9 = 0


On almost every occasion when a time ending in other that '0' or '5' occurs it is to record that individual's, or someone else's, arrival at a murder scene. The exceptions are Inspector Chandler hearing about the Chapman murder "about 2 minutes past 6" and Halse documenting that he learned of the Eddowes murder "at about 2 minutes to two". Much the same seems to have been the case with the civilian witnesses also.


I think the evidence that there was approximation in most of the timings given by the various witnesses is overwhelming.
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Last edited by Bridewell : 09-11-2018 at 07:35 AM.
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  #110  
Old 09-11-2018, 07:29 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Nice one, Bridewell!
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