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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Tumblety, Francis

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  #21  
Old 04-10-2011, 06:35 PM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curious4 View Post
Hello all,

Has it been established beyond all doubt that Tumbelty WAS the american doctor who tried to buy pickled uteri?


C4
No. Not by any means. It also seemed that coroner Wynne Baxter might have jumped the gun in terms of putting out the story that there was an American enquiring about organs and that the episode might have encouraged the Whitechapel murderer. It later transpired that said American was on a legitimate mission and that the enquiries he was making were not quite for the purpose that Baxter thought.

All the best

Chris
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Last edited by ChrisGeorge : 04-10-2011 at 06:53 PM.
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  #22  
Old 04-10-2011, 08:21 PM
curious4 curious4 is offline
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Default Tumblety

Thanks Chris! Is there any more information about him anywhere? A name, for instance? Or connected to any particular town or hospital?

Best wishes,
C4
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  #23  
Old 04-10-2011, 08:31 PM
mklhawley mklhawley is offline
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Here it is Curious4:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3572&page=4

It talks about the Philadelphia gynacologist. Curious, though, how the coroner could mistaked a "young medical student" with an experienced gynacologist.

Mike
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  #24  
Old 04-10-2011, 09:15 PM
curious4 curious4 is offline
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Default Tumblety

Many thanks mkl! Yes it is strange - unless there was a bit of identity stealing going on!

Best wishes,
C4
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  #25  
Old 07-02-2016, 08:05 AM
Roy Corduroy Roy Corduroy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Scott View Post
St Louis Republic
29 May 1903


For some time he had been suffering from valvular disease of the heart, and after a stay at Hot Springs, Ark., he decided to come to St Louis and prepare for the end.
Tumblety would have arrived at Union Station, St Louis, pictured here in 1904

Name:  Union04.jpg
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  #26  
Old 07-02-2016, 09:13 AM
Aldebaran Aldebaran is offline
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What a wonderful photo!
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  #27  
Old 07-02-2016, 03:14 PM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
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Originally Posted by Roy Corduroy View Post
Tumblety would have arrived at Union Station, St Louis, pictured here in 1904
At first I thought the photograph showed Lovely Lane Methodist Church in Baltimore. As you see below, a building with similarly rather clunky and overbearing Germanic looking architecture. As it turns out, Union Station, St. Louis was designed by Theodore C. Link, while the architect for Lovely Lane was Stanford White -- whose murder by Harry Thaw was famously referenced obliquely by former Chief Inspector John George Littlechild in 1903 in his letter to G. R. Sims in likening Thaw to Oscar Wilde and Tumblety as being men who had perverted tastes.

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  #28  
Old 07-02-2016, 07:37 PM
Mayerling Mayerling is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
At first I thought the photograph showed Lovely Lane Methodist Church in Baltimore. As you see below, a building with similarly rather clunky and overbearing Germanic looking architecture. As it turns out, Union Station, St. Louis was designed by Theodore C. Link, while the architect for Lovely Lane was Stanford White -- whose murder by Harry Thaw was famously referenced obliquely by former Chief Inspector John George Littlechild in 1903 in his letter to G. R. Sims in likening Thaw to Oscar Wilde and Tumblety as being men who had perverted tastes.

Hi Chris,

Great pictures on this thread. Littlechild's letter referring to the murder of Stamford White by Harry K. Thaw had to be in 1906 or after, as the killing of White in the rooftop garden restaurant theatre (at a performance of "Mamzelle Champagne" was in the original Madison Square Garden that White built) in June 1906 (last month was the 110th Anniversary).* That White chased too many women is true (and there is some evidence he was an occasional rapist). But for Thaw to claim that was partly done for his defense of protecting his marriage (the "unwritten law" against potential adulterous predators), and to poison public opinion against the dead White. In fact, Thaw proved to be (in his way) perverted as well - later having legal problems regarding whipping a bellboy about a decade after the murder of Thaw. Not everyone turned against White's memory. His brother-in-law, William Clinch-Smith**, was a witness to the murder and testified for the prosecution. The writer Richard Harding Davis got thoroughly sickened at the attacking of White's personality, and actually wrote a personal letter to the press about how it was unfair that the newspapers had supported Thaw's lies.

In particular the "yellow press" of William Randolph Hearst made Thaw a hero defending the Amerian hearth against predators. This was typical of Hearst's use of sensationalism, and overlooked his own philandering (even before his relationship with Marion Davies), and would only get halted in the 1920s, not before harming comedian Roscoe "Fatty" Arbuckle for a non-existant rape murder of Virginia Rappe. The change for Hearst was in 1924, when the Hollywood producer and director Thomas Ince died under odd circumstances on Hearst's yacht on a cruise with Ms Davies and Charley Chaplin on board, and it was soon rumored that Ince was shot (either intentionally or accidentally) by Hearst out of jealousy over Ms Davies. It was probably untrue, but the newspaper publisher finally discovered what happened to his reputation when a murder was pinned on him.

[*There are two movies that show the events: "The Girl in the Red Velvet Swing" with Ray Milland as White, Farley Granger as Thaw, and Joan Collins as the woman at the center, "Evelyn Nesbit Thaw"; "Ragtime" which shows the shooting of White (author Norman Mailer in a rare film role), by Thaw over Nesbit (Elizabeth McGovern). But it is part of a larger story of the times from the historical novel. Interestingly they show the scene of the musical "Mamzelle Champagne" with Donald O'Connor singing the tune on stage at that moment, "I Kissed a Thousand Girls".]

[**There are some interesting connections here between the Whitechapel Murders and the first 20th Century "Crime of the Century" at the old Madison Square Gardens. Besides Littlechild's letter to Sims mentioning both Tumblety and White as perverts to George Sims, Richard Harding Davis had been in London in 1890 (I think that was the date) when he interviewed a Scotland Yard official and discussed the Whitechapel Case. But Clinch-Smith, a well-to-do land owner on Long Island, was a socialite who in 1912 would be among those lost in the sinking of the Titanic, along with William T. Stead, who is connected to the case through his interest in the occult and connection with D'Onston Stevenson.]

Last edited by Mayerling : 07-02-2016 at 07:43 PM.
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  #29  
Old 07-02-2016, 07:41 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Some great pictures thanks.
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There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.
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  #30  
Old 07-04-2016, 01:00 AM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayerling View Post
Hi Chris,

Great pictures on this thread. Littlechild's letter referring to the murder of Stamford White by Harry K. Thaw had to be in 1906 or after, as the killing of White in the rooftop garden restaurant theatre (at a performance of "Mamzelle Champagne" was in the original Madison Square Garden that White built) in June 1906 (last month was the 110th Anniversary).* That White chased too many women is true (and there is some evidence he was an occasional rapist). But for Thaw to claim that was partly done for his defense of protecting his marriage (the "unwritten law" against potential adulterous predators), and to poison public opinion against the dead White. In fact, Thaw proved to be (in his way) perverted as well - later having legal problems regarding whipping a bellboy about a decade after the murder of Thaw. Not everyone turned against White's memory. His brother-in-law, William Clinch-Smith**, was a witness to the murder and testified for the prosecution. The writer Richard Harding Davis got thoroughly sickened at the attacking of White's personality, and actually wrote a personal letter to the press about how it was unfair that the newspapers had supported Thaw's lies.

In particular the "yellow press" of William Randolph Hearst made Thaw a hero defending the Amerian hearth against predators. This was typical of Hearst's use of sensationalism, and overlooked his own philandering (even before his relationship with Marion Davies), and would only get halted in the 1920s, not before harming comedian Roscoe "Fatty" Arbuckle for a non-existant rape murder of Virginia Rappe. The change for Hearst was in 1924, when the Hollywood producer and director Thomas Ince died under odd circumstances on Hearst's yacht on a cruise with Ms Davies and Charley Chaplin on board, and it was soon rumored that Ince was shot (either intentionally or accidentally) by Hearst out of jealousy over Ms Davies. It was probably untrue, but the newspaper publisher finally discovered what happened to his reputation when a murder was pinned on him.

[*There are two movies that show the events: "The Girl in the Red Velvet Swing" with Ray Milland as White, Farley Granger as Thaw, and Joan Collins as the woman at the center, "Evelyn Nesbit Thaw"; "Ragtime" which shows the shooting of White (author Norman Mailer in a rare film role), by Thaw over Nesbit (Elizabeth McGovern). But it is part of a larger story of the times from the historical novel. Interestingly they show the scene of the musical "Mamzelle Champagne" with Donald O'Connor singing the tune on stage at that moment, "I Kissed a Thousand Girls".]

[**There are some interesting connections here between the Whitechapel Murders and the first 20th Century "Crime of the Century" at the old Madison Square Gardens. Besides Littlechild's letter to Sims mentioning both Tumblety and White as perverts to George Sims, Richard Harding Davis had been in London in 1890 (I think that was the date) when he interviewed a Scotland Yard official and discussed the Whitechapel Case. But Clinch-Smith, a well-to-do land owner on Long Island, was a socialite who in 1912 would be among those lost in the sinking of the Titanic, along with William T. Stead, who is connected to the case through his interest in the occult and connection with D'Onston Stevenson.]
Hello, Jeff

Many thanks for fleshing out the Stanford White - Harry Thaw saga which is only very superficially touched upon in the Littlechild Letter. And of course that's one of the major problems that I have with Littlechild, Anderson, and MacNaughton. Here we have all these guys, years later, pontificating about the case, as if they knew what they were talking about. But did they? It appears to me each one of their very certain declarations is very similar, and akin to good old boys convening over cigars and brandy before a roaring fire. But, in truth, not really knowing what they were on about. Sounds good to an extent, but, on closer examination, a quite different narrative emerges. Thus the glaring factual errors that each of the three of them made. Aaargh. Sorry, boys, not nearly good enough!

Best regards

Chris
__________________
Christopher T. George
Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conference
just held in Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018.
For information about RipperCon, go to http://rippercon.com/
RipperCon 2018 talks can now be heard at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/

Last edited by ChrisGeorge : 07-04-2016 at 01:04 AM.
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