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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Police Officials and Procedures > Littlechild, Chief Inspector John George

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  #141  
Old 12-05-2011, 03:37 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Jonathan. Thanks.

"Oh, for sure and if Macnaghten had given us more on this there would be no 'Ripperology' at all."

But perhaps that's a GOOD thing? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC
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  #142  
Old 12-05-2011, 03:45 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi Jonathan,

My fault. Mea Culpa.

On 29th March Sims was quoting Abberline from the 24th March, not 31st March 1903.

Put it down to the onset of Old-Timers disease.

Regards,

Simon
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  #143  
Old 12-05-2011, 04:13 AM
Jonathan H Jonathan H is offline
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Dear Simon

No need to apologise, especially to me: eg. the Druitt Leper.

I make mistakes all the time.

For example Stewart is probably right and I am probably wrong about the 'Balfour' bit.

I would still argue that, as a textual comparison, this is still a tantalizing co-incidence:

'Sir Melville Macnaghten appears to identify the Ripper with the leader of a plot to assassinate Mr. Balfour at the Irish Office. (Browne, 1956)

'I incline to the belief that the individual . . . committed suicide on or about the 10th of November 1888, after he had knocked out a Commissioner of Police and very nearly settled the hash of one of Her Majesty's principal Secretaries of State.' (Macnaghten, 1914)

And the 'hash' was not 'settled', so to speak, in either case.

My one, tiny triumph is finally finding an example of Mac (via Sims) knowing something outside of P.C. Moulson's Report (eg. other than the train pass) which is true of the real Montie.

That his brother was searching for him, which becomes veiled as the friends searching for the doctor.

Most people believe that this so-called 'triumph' is very, very, very tiny indeed ...
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  #144  
Old 12-05-2011, 04:20 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi Jonathan,

There was certainly no shortage of reported plots to assassinate Balfour.

And he was a guest at the Lord Mayor's banquet on 9th November 1888.

Regards,

Simon
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  #145  
Old 12-05-2011, 05:57 AM
Jonathan H Jonathan H is offline
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How fascinating Simon!

Balfour was at the Lord Mayor's Day celebrations, spoilt by the fiend's most appalling murder, and at some future point Mac seems to have connected the murderer to a plot to kill the minister of state?
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  #146  
Old 12-05-2011, 06:06 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi Jonathan,

Yep, them's the facts.

I've often wondered if LMD may have been Balfour's closest call.

Regards,

Joe Friday
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  #147  
Old 12-05-2011, 10:04 AM
Stewart P Evans Stewart P Evans is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi Stewart,
You'd be sorely missed.
Regards,
Simon
Simon, thank you for that, appreciated.

I am old, jaded, cynical and have little stomach for the fight. There are some enthusiastic young whipper-snappers about and I really don't wish to put them off as they do some great work. I think that Jonathan's approach is great and brings much new thinking and often causes me to re-assess my ideas. I don't want to put anyone off with my sometimes (unintended) waspy responses, but I often feel I've had enough.

You are that little bit older than me and seem to be able to stay the course whilst still introducing some new and valuable material. If I don't always participate I'll hang around and watch.
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  #148  
Old 12-05-2011, 03:02 PM
Jonathan H Jonathan H is offline
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To Stewart

Your work on this subject is second to none and there is nothing to be cynical about (weariness is quite another matter) and outside of the 'community' your books, and interviews and article are very much enjoyed and admired.

I had 'The Lodger' before I knew this sire existed. And so that book was the first time I had even read the entire Littlechild Letter. I was already amazed by the 'Secret History' doco which showed that a middle-aged medico pursued by police was the likely prime suspect of 1888.

Then I read the entire letter and discovered that Littlechild had claimed that it was 'believed' -- by somebody -- that Dr. Tumblety had taken his own life (well, that certainly obliterates the Andrews' trip) and thus was even closer to the 'drowned doctor'. And where di that tale come from?

'The Lodger' introduced me to George Sims, in greater depth, and I was amazed by the fictional portrait he had spun for the public which seemed to to me to be bits of Druitt and bits of Tumblety (nobody agrees, I know, including yourself, and that's fair enough) cobbled together to create a tale which enhanced the Yard's reputation.

Fascinating stuff and a boon for me and my students in a succession of history classes,

To Simon 'Joe Friday' Wood

It's not a 'fact' that Macnaghten identified the leader of an assassination plot with the fiend. Historical methodology needs more than one secondary source when it is in conflict with all other primary sources. Even when a single primary source is anomalously alone it is to be treated with great caution (eg. Dr. T's alleged marriage to a prostitute by a single Us tabloid).

It might be true that Browne saw something in a classified file, but it might not be -- it might be a misunderstanding since we cannot access what he accessed, if there is anything to access?

This subject, far from being a set of 'facts', is rather a wilderness of mirrors, of lonely men and women, in small rooms, eating stale sandwiches and drinking staler beer, wearing out their eyes trying to read dusty, forgotten sources in the quest for the Holy Grail of final proof ...

Jonathan 'George Smiley' Hainsworth
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  #149  
Old 12-05-2011, 05:15 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Jonathan.

"This subject, far from being a set of 'facts', is rather a wilderness of mirrors . . ."

Quite right. But isn't that, in itself, an indication that something, somewhere, is decidedly wrong?

Cheers.
LC
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  #150  
Old 12-05-2011, 06:02 PM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan H View Post
This subject, far from being a set of 'facts', is rather a wilderness of mirrors, of lonely men and women, in small rooms, eating stale sandwiches and drinking staler beer, wearing out their eyes trying to read dusty, forgotten sources in the quest for the Holy Grail of final proof ...

Jonathan 'George Smiley' Hainsworth
Hi Jonathan

This might be one of the truest things that you have yet written. I know I am suffering from eye strain.

Kind regards

Chris
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