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  • Found it.

    I have found the item I was looking for. It is in the form of a letter I wrote to another theorist over whether or not the bodies were dumped in any particular pattern. For what it is worth, here it is.



    Dear

    Many thanks for your email.

    You’re quite right in saying that I have a problem with those theorists who insist that there is a pattern to the body dumps. Ivor of course wasn’t the first to suggest this; it’s just that it has become a corner stone of his theory.

    I think the best way to answer you is to do it in two parts. First of all I would like to tackle the positioning theory and then Ivor in particular.

    Proponents of the positioning theory usually fall back on the idea that for the body dumps to be random would be such a coincidence as not to be entertained. They usually back this up by quoting some incredible multimillion figures to support this. I’m sure you’ve heard them ‘The odds of this happening are 15 billion to one against!’

    This sounds very impressive until you start to investigate it a bit more closely. First off I am unaware of any statistical analysis method of calculating the odds of where a body can be dumped. Academically speaking if you are going to make statements like this you should always quote your sources. For example:

    ‘The odds, as determined by Dr Rubenstein using SASS statistical Analysis at Trinity College on the 24th February 2004, are ……’

    If you notice this is never done. In any case the odds are a lot less than you may think. For example if you look at the street map of any town or city you can easily be fooled into thinking that a body can be dumped anywhere. This is not so. If you first of all take off all the places that a body cannot be dumped – in a wall for instance, and then take off all those places that a body is unlikely to be dumped, on a roof, in a secure building etc etc, you will find that your massive area has shrunk remarkably.

    In fact it really comes down to those areas that are open and easily accessible, roads, alleyways, commons etc. If you then take off those areas that are subject to a lot of traffic, busy roads etc, you will find that the areas on any map that a body can be dumped with impunity are relatively few.

    So first off don’t be fooled into thinking that bodies can be dumped anywhere – they can’t, and when you take that into account you will find that the odds of a body turning up in any particular place are dramatically shortened.

    Next let us look at patterns. When we look at the Ripper body dumps, practically everybody looks at the positions and then tries to form patterns. This is bad science. In an experiment you try and achieve an objective – when you have achieved it you try and duplicate the process – thus proving the first time wasn’t a fluke.

    What theorist should be doing if they wish to be taken seriously is showing us how the killer plotted the positions for dumping the bodies. They don’t – instead they start at the end – the finding of the bodies and construct their theories from that.

    It’s quite difficult to actually plot a series of body dumps that actually conform to a fixed pattern. Try it yourself. Draw a pattern with at least four points on it, a square, a diamond, two triangles whatever takes your fancy. Cut this out in cardboard and lay it on a large-scale road map of a town. I guarantee that at least one of your dumps will be in a no go area, like halfway through a wall, a secure building, on a roof, whatever.

    Now common sense states that if you wished to dump bodies so they conform to a set pattern then all you would do is to dump them in a wide-open space such as a moor or a common. This is relatively simple.

    But to take the next step what are the odds of randomly dumped bodies forming discernible patterns?

    To determine this I constructed my own experiment. I took sheets of graph paper and numbered off 1cm squares – 100 across the top and 100 down. I then gave each square across the top a number and each square down the side a number – just like the grid references in a map. Each one of the 10,000 squares could thus be individually identified.

    Using a Random Number Generator (downloaded from the internet) to produce a series of numbers for the squares across the top, and the same for the squares down the sides. I then ended up with a number of positions on the paper that had been picked completely at random. I did this for five positions for 100 sheets.

    The results were startling. In 63% of cases randomly picked positions did form recognisable shapes and patterns. This is hardly surprising since there are so many different shapes we can utilise.

    For example if we take the Ripper body dumps (leave out Kelly) look at the vast number of patterns you can make with these first four positions.

    Draw a line Nichols, (N) Chapman, (C) Eddowes, (E) Stride (S) and back to Nichols. You have a parallelogram.

    Draw a line N to E, E to C, E to S; you now have an arrow pointing South West.

    Draw a line E to N, N to C, N to S; you now have an arrow pointing North East.

    And so on. Look at all the different patterns you can form just by using these four points. Is it any wonder that in the majority of cases recognisable patterns can be formed from taking just four random points?

    The final point on patterns being formed by the body dumps is who is to say which of the victims were killed by Jack the Ripper? There is a good case to be made for leaving Stride out of the tally. What happens to your patterns then?

    Now to take Ivor’s particular points, the problem he has is that he doesn’t take enough care to ensure that what he is saying is accurate. For example he states that the distances between the first four victims are the same, he even go so far as to say they are accurate to the yard. They aren’t.

    First off since it is impossible to actually pinpoint the positions of the victims to the ‘yard’ his statement is nonsense.

    Secondly I have calculated the distances using the largest scale map available, and the generally accepted positions of the bodies, and I can assure you the differences are up to 15% out.

    His other main claim is the first four victims were dumped at the four cardinal points of the compass. North, South, East and West. Unfortunately he has made the amateurs mistake of assuming the points of the compass show position – they don’t they show direction.

    So for his statement to make sense he would have to tell us where these bearings were taken from. He doesn’t do this so the only way to proceed is to join the four plots (C to S & N to E) and use the intersection of the two lines as your prime position. From this point it is quite clear that none of the victims lie North, South, East or West.

    At the Brighton conference Ivor gave a talk and I challenged him on his assertion that Commercial Road ran West to East. It was quite clear from the map he was using that Commercial Road ran South West to North East, but he refused to accept that. The audience really couldn’t understand why he continued to assert something that clearly wasn’t so, but I’m afraid that does seem to his way.

    Anyway I hope I’ve given you something to work on. If there’s anything else don’t hesitate to drop me a line.

    Bob

    Comment


    • Hello Mike!

      An interesting piece of numerology, thank you!

      But how can one anyone seriously relate anything of the info to JtR?!

      All the best
      Jukka
      "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

      Comment


      • Hi Jukka, It's not really a matter of associating anything from that site, but the alleged power of the number itself.

        Bob, nice article.
        Regards Mike

        Comment


        • Dan,

          Thanks for that.
          Washington Irving:

          "To a homeless man, who has no spot on this wide world which he can truly call his own, there is a momentary feeling of something like independence and territorial consequence, when, after a weary day's travel, he kicks off his boots, thrusts his feet into slippers, and stretches himself before an inn fire. Let the world without go as it may; let kingdoms rise and fall, so long as he has the wherewithal to pay his bills, he is, for the time being, the very monarch of all he surveys. The arm chair in his throne; the poker his sceptre, and the little parlour of some twelve feet square, his undisputed empire. "

          Stratford-on-Avon

          Comment


          • Hi,
            Yes Thirty nine is a powerful number,and what relevance it may have had in the mind of the whitechapel killer one can only speculate.
            Religion mayby, or occult, or something relevant in the killers life that was thirty nine based, date of birth of his mother/father mayby, or a house number, mayby the Victoria home...... that was numbered 39-41 Commercial street was it not. the entrance clearly displayed 39 [ Photograph]
            When one looks at two suspects residing there at that time [Fleming, Hutchinson] why not indeed?
            Regards Richard.

            Comment


            • Hello Dan!

              Originally posted by Daniel Gillotti View Post
              Alley:

              LOL...your right point taken, if you remember D'onston was in the Hospital for a back injury? for 136 days! 150 yards from the first murder;he was there before the murders began and left, I think a week after the last murder...

              There he could of gotten access to medical records and the names of the woman who were treated there; they would have given their Christian names if they wanted to get treated.

              Plus he new a lot of them, he was a frequent customer and I'm sure they would have felt comfortable telling him their real names; if I remember at that time in white chapel alone there were estimated 2000 prostitutes,

              Best Regards, Dan...
              Well, if there were 2000 prostitutes, it would have taken him a hell of a job to check the addresses, to find out their moves on that specific evening (in that case he was a genious, even the brightest of us on these boards don't know them for sure! ).

              Then; there were hundreds, or at least tens of hospitals in the LVP London, so, the probablility of all the C5 being in the same hospital during those 136 days... Well, I need some aid from the mathematically more gifted members here!

              Surely someone in Scotland Yard would have noticed the common thing of the C5?!

              All the best
              Jukka
              "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

              Comment


              • There is an article here on this very site about the alleged patterns left by the Ripper


                Crowley writes about JTR, Stephenson and the Pentagram

                (Featuring 5 white dress ties)

                Crowley writes about JTR, Stephenson but this time includes 7 white dress ties,
                Regards Mike

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Daniel Gillotti View Post
                  Alley:

                  LOL...your right point taken, if you remember D'onston was in the Hospital for a back injury? for 136 days! 150 yards from the first murder;he was there before the murders began and left, I think a week after the last murder...

                  There he could of gotten access to medical records and the names of the woman who were treated there; they would have given their Christian names if they wanted to get treated.

                  Plus he new a lot of them, he was a frequent customer and I'm sure they would have felt comfortable telling him their real names; if I remember at that time in white chapel alone there were estimated 2000 prostitutes,

                  Best Regards, Dan...
                  Dan, if your research into suspects is as good as your research into your theory I would give up now. The above statement is riddled with lies, errors and ill founded speculation.

                  Fact
                  Robert D'Onston Stephenson did not have a back injury!

                  Fact
                  Robert D'Onston Stephenson was admitted July 26th 1888 a whole month prior to the murder of Tabram.

                  Fact
                  Robert D'Onston Stephenson was released on December 7th 1888 a whole month after the murder of Mary Kelly.

                  Fact
                  His total time in hospital was 135 days not 136

                  Fact
                  As a patient he could not gain access to other patients records!

                  Fact
                  There is no evidence whatsoever that Stephenson ever had relations or used prostitutes. Like it or not, the Hull Customs House Records showing Stephenson's employement never mention Prostitutes, nor Sexually Transmitted Diseases. These claims were made falsly to advance Stephenson's candidacy as the ripper.

                  Fact
                  London Hospital Standing Orders for Night Porters, 1888 (Royal London Hospital Archives document reference LH/A/1/17) states:

                  ' 2. They shall see that the gates and doors of the Hospital are duly secured by 11 p.m.'

                  they continue:

                  ' 3. After that hour the Head Night Porter shall register in the night-book the names or particulars of all persons, whether officers, servants, patients, or others, entering or leaving the Hospital,...'

                  Standing orders for the Gate Porter include:

                  ' 3. He shall not allow any patient to leave the Hospital without written permission from the House-Governor; nor admit any person contrary to the rules of the Institution'.
                  Regards Mike

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Daniel Gillotti View Post
                    Alley:

                    LOL...your right point taken, if you remember D'onston was in the Hospital for a back injury? for 136 days! 150 yards from the first murder;he was there before the murders began and left, I think a week after the last murder...
                    No he wasn't.
                    There he could of gotten access to medical records and the names of the woman who were treated there; they would have given their Christian names if they wanted to get treated.
                    A) you are presuming without facts that all the victims were treated there. And B) you are wildly speculating without evidence that not only did he somehow manage to break into the medical files and get his hands on them but in addition to this feat, while supposedly lying ill, he also managed to sneak out. And then what? Armed with only a name he somehow manages to track those five down out of the thousands of prostitutes in Whitechapel? So what? Was Satan ACTUALLY helping him conjure these amazing feats?


                    Plus he new a lot of them, he was a frequent customer and I'm sure they would have felt comfortable telling him their real names;
                    Absolutely no foundation or factual basis for this statement whatsoever.
                    Last edited by Ally; 02-10-2010, 03:33 PM.

                    Let all Oz be agreed;
                    I need a better class of flying monkeys.

                    Comment


                    • Dear Dan:

                      Not sure where you got your education on D'Onston but the facts as Ally and Mike have been providing are solid....although Mike is off by one day ( D'Onston was in the LH for 134 days ).

                      While its possible that D'Onston did engage in sexual liasons with prostitutes, there is nothing in the available data that demonstrates as much. In fact, its been claimed that sourceable material exists, which on close examination proves otherwise. Likewise, if he ever acquired venereal disease, one of the two pillars of the theorized motive for these crimes ( retribution for getting v.d. from a pross ), its also not in the available data on D'Onston. He has been claimed to have obtained v.d., but as with the liasing with prosses, there is simply no evidence.

                      I doubt if you have read the O'Donnell Manuscript with Cremers' so-called memoirs. I suggest that you do. Not only is the sequencing of events out of whack calling all of what she is alleged to have divulged to Bernard O'Donnell into question, but its very hard to understand how a person who is of the opinion that she is living in the same building as Jack The Ripper would rifle through his possessions...with him being cognizant of her being one of the only two who could have done as much....and then lends him money to top it all off.

                      Comment


                      • Hello you all!

                        I had only known about the possible pentagram. No idea of the other possibilites, thanks presenting the other suggestions!

                        Well, this shows the difficulty with trying to add mathematics to the murder scenes; with math you can form any kind of theory you like...

                        All the best
                        Jukka
                        "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Howard Brown View Post
                          Not sure where you got your education on D'Onston but the facts as Ally and Mike have been providing are solid....although Mike is off by one day ( D'Onston was in the LH for 134 days ).
                          Thanks for pulling me up on my faulty researching Howard.
                          Regards Mike

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mike Covell View Post

                            Fact
                            London Hospital Standing Orders for Night Porters, 1888 (Royal London Hospital Archives document reference LH/A/1/17) states:

                            ' 2. They shall see that the gates and doors of the Hospital are duly secured by 11 p.m.'

                            they continue:

                            ' 3. After that hour the Head Night Porter shall register in the night-book the names or particulars of all persons, whether officers, servants, patients, or others, entering or leaving the Hospital,...'

                            Standing orders for the Gate Porter include:

                            ' 3. He shall not allow any patient to leave the Hospital without written permission from the House-Governor; nor admit any person contrary to the rules of the Institution'.

                            Well since you are thanking people for pointing out errors, I'll remind you that this was somewhat disproved back when we had this go-round before and you said that in addition to the gates being secured, the wards were also individually locked down at night to keep out the prostitutes, beggars and thieves. Which begs the question, if the gate was so darn secure, how were those prostitutes, beggars and thieves managing to get in?

                            I never did receive an answer to that one....

                            Let all Oz be agreed;
                            I need a better class of flying monkeys.

                            Comment


                            • Hi Ally, I recall the email exchange back in May 2008, I thought we had touched on this topic. It states in the London Hospital Yearbook for 1888/89 that prostitutes, beggars and thieves would use the outbuildings when the gates were open, and remain on the grounds after hours when the gates were locked, thus making it a necessity to lock the doors of the wards.
                              Regards Mike

                              Comment


                              • Why would prostitutes beggars and thieves remain on the grounds of a locked down hospital that they didn't have access to their targets (all being locked up tight).

                                Prostitutes and beggars aren't going to hang out where there is no trade. So either the wards weren't locked up (which disproves the claim) or there was access for people to come in and out despite the locks.

                                Let all Oz be agreed;
                                I need a better class of flying monkeys.

                                Comment

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