The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[lynn cates]

lay her down

Hello CD. Thanks.

"But then wouldn't that imply that the killer could have lain her down with her feet in any direction?"

Very well. Try this. Take a female partner--preferably close to Liz in height and weight. Lay her down.

Do you:

1. Lay her down as is?

or

2. Turn yourselves 180 first?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

bingo

Hello Jon.

"I have not seen anything that suggests Stride was holding the cachous when assaulted by BS-man."

Bingo!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

the question

Hello (again) Jon.

"I think another question that is key is why would the B.S. man go on to kill Liz after being seen by both Schwartz and the Pipeman? A reasonable and prudent person would have to think that there was a good chance that Schwartz had run off to find the nearest P.C."

I agree that this question has never been satisfactorily addressed--nor ever shall be.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

someone

Hello J.

"Don't forget this guy butchered and eviscerated a woman in the backyard of a crowded tenement building, possibly in daylight and whilst there was a man standing just over the other side of the fence."

Well, SOMEONE did.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

well in one version he says he pulled her toward the road.

The statement says he tried to pull her into the road, Abby.
Which suggests he didn`t actually pull her into the road.

[John G]

Hello (again) Batman.

"but there had been the same skill exhibited in the way in which the victim had been entrapped, and the injuries inflicted,"

Meaning a cut throat. Unless, of course, the coroner contradicted himself and she had been mutilated after all.

Now, about that imitator. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Was the victim "entrapped" as Batman suggests? Thus, whoever killed the other C5 was clearly able to demonstrate a degree of self control . For instance, he doesn't just attack his victims the moment he first sets eyes on them. He either convinces them to go with him to a pre-planned location, or he allows his victims to escort him to a location of their choosing. And, of course, there are no witnesses to the murders.

Contrast that with BS man. According to Schwartz's evidence, he first approaches Stride whilst she is just minding her own business standing in the gateway. He stops to speak to her but appears to rapidly loose patience. He then grabs hold of her, tries to pull her into the street, spins her around, and finally throws her down on the footpath. None of this indicates to me the slightest level of self control.

Of course, he also does this in front of at least two witnesses- four if you count the couple mentioned by Mrs D. And we would have to conclude that he's so disorganized that he either doesn't care about their presence or he's too stupid or drunk to have even noticed them.

[John G]

The statement says he tried to pull her into the road, Abby.
Which suggests he didn`t actually pull her into the road.

Hello Jon,

But the police statement doesn't say he pushes through the gate into the passage either. It says he throws her down on to the footway, I.e. the public foot path alongside the street.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon,

But the police statement doesn't say he pushes through the gate into the passage either. It says he throws her down on to the footway, I.e. the public foot path alongside the street.

Hi John

Yes, the Star has the pushed back into the passageway detail.

Considering this is not a sensational detail (like the knife in pipeman`s hand) and is actually where the body was found, I consider it a useful piece of information.

Please note though, that there was no footway or pavement in the gateway to the yard where Stride was standing. I think Schwartz (a non English speaking Hungarian) was referring to the ground between the gates.

[Batman]

Of course, he also does this in front of at least two witnesses- four if you count the couple mentioned by Mrs D. And we would have to conclude that he's so disorganized that he either doesn't care about their presence or he's too stupid or drunk to have even noticed them.

We know from experiments conducted in Whitechapel that the police where unable to create a fool-proof cordon around a small area. This meant that there was access too and from places not on any maps, but as a result of the population explosions and people changing their landscape, especially with doss houses and their yards. Someone who knew these could go anywhere they wanted, do anything they wanted and likely not get caught in the process.

The idea of JtR being silent and unseen is probably a myth based around his identity remaining a mystery and the Hollywood stereotype of the black cloak and dagger stuff. Nearly in all cases there is witness testimony, several very close shaves for JtR and maybe possibly even his identification by a witness if we go the Kozminski route, meaning he got busted. I don't accept the Kozminski case, but its there anyway.

JtR is able to getaway with stealth... but that doesn't mean he starts off that way.

[John G]

Hi John

Yes, the Star has the pushed back into the passageway detail.

Considering this is not a sensational detail (like the knife in pipeman`s hand) and is actually where the body was found, I consider it a useful piece of information.

Please note though, that there was no footway or pavement in the gateway to the yard where Stride was standing. I think Schwartz (a non English speaking Hungarian) was referring to the ground between the gates.

Hello Jon,

Yes, but in the Star version he subsequently hears the sound of a quarrel, suggesting to me that this was some kind of domestic dispute. The difficulty is, why didn't Stride get up and try and escape? Why does BS man start arguing with her at this point if his intention is to cut her throat? And if they're arguing inside the gate that creates another problem as Mrs D may have been close by in the kitchen with the window open (although clearly she must have moved to the front room some time later). Why does she not hear the quarrel? I mean, Schwartz heard it as he was walking away so it must have been quite loud. And doesn't the Star version imply Pipman was some kind of accomplice, shouting out a warning to BS man?

[Batman]

Hello (again) Batman.

"but there had been the same skill exhibited in the way in which the victim had been entrapped, and the injuries inflicted,"

Meaning a cut throat. Unless, of course, the coroner contradicted himself and she had been mutilated after all.

Now, about that imitator. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Oh no are we really going back to the myth of a 'cut throat' again?

Neck slashing > cut throat.

Deep gashes, not partial cutting.

Forensic awareness of arterial spray.

Those elements are the ones the inquest matched with Nichols and Chapman.

No objection from the medicals at the inquest to that, or after either.

Which means your suspect, who is being detained at this time, now has the perfect alibi - namely law enforcement when the crime was committed.

There are alibi's and then there are perfect ones. Doesn't get much better than that for him.

I can see why you are concerned very much with Stride as you need the inquest to be wrong in order for your suspect to make sense, which as pointed out before, involving a delusional butcher thinking he is butchering an animal, seems unlikely as he needs to suddenly snap out of it at the right moment and make an escape.

[John G]

We know from experiments conducted in Whitechapel that the police where unable to create a fool-proof cordon around a small area. This meant that there was access too and from places not on any maps, but as a result of the population explosions and people changing their landscape, especially with doss houses and their yards. Someone who knew these could go anywhere they wanted, do anything they wanted and likely not get caught in the process.

The idea of JtR being silent and unseen is probably a myth based around his identity remaining a mystery and the Hollywood stereotype of the black cloak and dagger stuff. Nearly in all cases there is witness testimony, several very close shaves for JtR and maybe possibly even his identification by a witness if we go the Kozminski route, meaning he got busted. I don't accept the Kozminski case, but its there anyway.

JtR is able to getaway with stealth... but that doesn't mean he starts off that way.

Hello Batman,

Yes, but he took elementary precautions such as not attacking victims in front of witnesses. He also was restrained enough to take his victims to relatively secluded areas, such as the darkest part of Mitre Square, rather than impulsively attacking them on sight. He also attacked at night or in the early hours of the morning, when the lighting conditions would be poor and there may have been fewer people about than in the day time.

Of course, today he would be probably regarded as somewhat disorganized in this respect, i.e. because he attacked his victims in public places. But realistically what alternative did he have? He obviously didn't have a car or van that he could bundle, or lure, his victims in to. His lodgings would probably be multi-occupancy and very crowded- and that's assuming he lived alone. And,of course, if he keeps bringing victims back with him sooner or later someone is going to notice.

[Batman]

The idea that whoever killed Stride did it at a different time to JtR though is false because Eddowes was killed right after...

... At a time exactly as if Stride's killer just walked Westwards.

[Jon Guy]

The idea that whoever killed Stride did it at a different time to JtR though is false because Eddowes was killed right after...

... At a time exactly as if Stride's killer just walked Westwards.

Stride was also killed at exactly the same time as Alice McKenzie... 12.45 ish

[Jon Guy]

Oh no are we really going back to the myth of a 'cut throat' again?

Absolutely, Nichols and Chapman both had their throats cut in completely different ways (but still obviously the same killer).