Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Scene of the Crimes: distances between kills.odd - by Herlock Sholmes 8 minutes ago.
Scene of the Crimes: distances between kills.odd - by Herlock Sholmes 12 minutes ago.
Non-Fiction: The New Jack the Ripper A-Z - by jmenges 12 minutes ago.
Scene of the Crimes: distances between kills.odd - by Herlock Sholmes 13 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by MrBarnett 25 minutes ago.
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - by Michael W Richards 29 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - (78 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: distances between kills.odd - (21 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Did Mary Kelly meet the Bethnal Green Botherer? - (11 posts)
Torso Killings: JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful. - (8 posts)
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - (7 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim? - (4 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 08-02-2009, 01:11 PM
Jeff Leahy Jeff Leahy is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: East end-kent
Posts: 3,737
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
Hi All.
It just goes to show, that we are completely lost when it comes to possible events on the eve/morning of that fateful night.
I would suggest that kelly was not drunk at the time of Barnetts visit, he makes no mention of it, and Praters meeting at the court entrance with Mary, makes no mention.
The latter encounter i strongly believe happened, her account is too realistic to be untrue.
That being the case was Mrs Coxs account of blotchy true?
At 9pm Prater refers to kelly wearing her jacket and bonnet, remarking that she [ prater] did not own such items, yet less then three hours later, Cox has her dressed differently.
Question...[1] Was Prater lying?
[2] Was Cox lying?
[3] Did kelly return to her room to 'dressdown'?
Did Blotchy even exist? after all no evidence was found in her room of any such occurance.
We simply do not know, I would suggest that after Barnett left at 8pm, kelly prepeared herself for a night out, and she left her room around 9pm, engaging Prater at the entrance to Dorset Street, she was then wearing her black jacket and bonnet, and i feel that she returned home alone around midnight, and singing commenced.
I have a strong feeling that kelly was paronoid about spending time alone in that room, and ventured out on the streets again around 2am, hoping to attract a suitable client who would stay the night.
And she did just that, in the shape of Astracan... did he kill her?
I would say most certainly not, kelly meeting her death around 9am on the ninth.
Regards Richard.
But surely the singing is confirmed by a number of people and would suggest that Mary was entertaining blotchy face at this time.

Pirate
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-02-2009, 02:02 PM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,310
Default

Hi Pirate,
Agreed Kellys singing was overheard, but did anyone hear conversation, or a mans voice?
Answer No, is it not therefore possible that she was singing aloud alone....hardly a rare event is it?
We have only Coxs word , and she did give two different accounts, of where she witnessed the event.
a] whilst following them up the court.
b] whilst standing at her door in the court awaiting her man to come home from the pub.
And of course the clothing worn by kelly differs from Praters observation , less then three hours earlier.
Every reason to express doubt ..in my opinion.
Regards Richard.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-02-2009, 02:26 PM
Paddy Paddy is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 788
Default Is this George Hutchinson

Found this printed in The Times, Friday, Sep 02, 1887...............
Attached Images
 
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-02-2009, 02:30 PM
The Good Michael The Good Michael is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hsinchu, Taiwan
Posts: 3,773
Default

Paddy,

He's too old to be our Hutchinson.

Mike
__________________
huh?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-02-2009, 02:48 PM
Jeff Leahy Jeff Leahy is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: East end-kent
Posts: 3,737
Default

Hi Richard

Yes some interesting questions on which we might speculate.

I’m not convinced that Kelly would be singing to herself for such a long time. The scenario of bringing back a client and entertaining him with a song and drinking his beer just seems a logical scenario to me. But perhaps Kelly did have some music haul connections and was just practicing?

I don’t find it odd that Blotchy wasn’t singing. But one would have thought that he might have talked loudly on his beer.

Re: The jug. I would have thought blotchy would take this with him. Would there not have been a deposit on the bottle?

RE: Cox story. Yes agreed there does appear some elaboration in the telling. Although she seems to keep to the same basic story.

My view is it largely depends on your view of MJK as a prostitute. Was she working hard that night? Entertained blotchy and back on the street ASAP. Or was she simply chancing a free beer and a little money after an evening drinking?

For my money Blotchy is the most likely killer. But I think your observations most interesting.

All the best

Pirate
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-02-2009, 04:07 PM
babybird67 babybird67 is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Wales
Posts: 1,146
Default hi Richard

Quote:
Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
Question...[1] Was Prater lying?
Why would she?

Quote:
[2] Was Cox lying?
Why would she?


Quote:
Did Blotchy even exist? after all no evidence was found in her room of any such occurance.
He was seen by a witness with Mary going into her room. I cannot see any reason why Cox would lie about seeing Mary with Blotchy. None whatsoever.

Quote:
and i feel that she returned home alone around midnight, and singing commenced.
Yes but that flies in the face of the evidence, Richard, which is that Mary was SEEN returning to her room at 11.45 with a Blotchy faced man accompanying her. You cannot simply discount witness testimony without good reason. Why are you so willing to accept Hutchinson's much more problematic witness testimony and yet discount Cox's without any good reason?

Quote:
I have a strong feeling that kelly was paronoid about spending time alone in that room, and ventured out on the streets again around 2am, hoping to attract a suitable client who would stay the night.
I'm sorry Richard but that doesn't make the slightest bit of sense to me. She had her own room, in which, one would imagine, she would feel much safer than exposed out on the streets. How on earth would going out at 2am, knowing there is a serial killer of prostitutes on the loose, and intending to pick up a strange man to come back to her room with her, make her feel any safer? If anything, it would increase her fears. I am a woman. Believe me, if i had a room in which i could barricade myself i would do so...i don't for one moment think going out onto the streets to avail myself of a strange man would for one second make me feel at all safe or secure. There were plenty of women surrounding her in the court...if she felt unsafe she could have sought the company of Cox or Prater, not some unknown man on the streets at 2am...what possible motive could such a man who approached her have? He certainly wouldn't be out looking out for a woman he could console and make feel safe would he? There is just no common sense in that theory whatsoever.


Quote:
I would say most certainly not, kelly meeting her death around 9am on the ninth.
but again Richard that flies in the face of the available medical evidence and other witness testimony. I don't believe she would have eaten a meal of fish which would have still been recognisable in the contents of her stomach at that time. I dont think she would have brought a man back to her room at 9am in the morning.

Sorry but there are too many holes in the theory that she was killed at 9am for it to be plausible for me.
__________________
babybird

There is only one happiness in life—to love and be loved.

George Sand
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-02-2009, 05:17 PM
perrymason
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mary was heard to commence singing shortly after her and Blotchy entered the room. There are numerous accounts of the singing being heard. That is very much in keeping with her entering her room with a man that she is entertaining while drunk.

For her to continue to sing after the company leaves is not. Since Mary Ann makes a few trips by that room and can approximate the time when the singing was not heard any longer, just after 1am, ...after Mary Ann walks past Marys door near 1:15...we probably have Blotchy leaving before Mary Anne passes the door to go back out soliciting around 1:15am, or Blotchy leaving sometime between 1:15 and 1:30 when EP enters the picture.

Best regards all.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-02-2009, 05:39 PM
Garry Wroe Garry Wroe is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,572
Default

Hi Richard.

The problem, as I see it, in attempting to establish fact through the statements of Joe Barnett is that he clearly loved Kelly and endeavoured whenever possible to place her character in the best possible light. His claim, for example, that she was of sober habits contrasts sharply with McCarthy's assertion that she was frequently drunk. Regulars at the Britannia not only echoed McCarthy's observation, but went even further in stating that she was often aggressively drunk. Even so, there is no reason to suppose that Kelly was befuddled when Barnett met her for the last time. The fact that she had been drinking should not necessarily infer that she was drunk. That she was drunk at midnight, however, is, to my mind, beyond dispute.

As for Mary Ann Cox, there are, as you point out, certain inconsistencies concerning her sighting of Kelly and Blotchy. During her inquest testimony, for instance, she claimed to have seen Blotchy only from the rear. If so, how is it that she was able to describe his complexion and whiskers?

The answer, I believe, is to be found in the Eddowes inquest when Lawende's description of the man he saw standing with Eddowes at the entrance to Church Passage was withheld at the request of the police 'in the interests of justice'. This attempt by the authorities to sanitize due process may also explain why Schwartz was never called to give evidence at the Stride inquest. In reading the testimony of Mary Ann Cox, there is the distinct scent of evasion in several of her responses to questioning. And yet, by comparison, the story she related to reporters was the model of consistency including her description of Blotchy's complexion and whiskers.

Hence I think it more than possible that the police regarded Blotchy as a prime suspect and sought to keep his description under wraps as best they could – as would be standard procedure in the sophisticated, modern-day murder investigation. Since such a strategy was certainly employed in the case of Lawende, there is reason to suppose that Mary Ann Cox might have been requested to exercise discretion when giving evidence. If so, the seeming contradictions between her inquest and press accounts are easily reconciled, removing any question as to her reliability as an eyewitness.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-02-2009, 09:10 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 11,454
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy View Post
Found this printed in The Times, Friday, Sep 02, 1887...............
We discussed him at length a while back, Paddy, but I don't think he's our man. He was a long-term resident of Mile End, and resided with his parents, as I recall, before and after 1888. He occasionally appears in discussions here, referred to as "Ticker-Nicker George".
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-02-2009, 09:41 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 11,454
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Wroe View Post
Hi Sam.

[size=2]The afternoon of drinking was detailed by Maria Harvey in at least two press interviews.
Thanks, Garry, but the only plausible reference I have found so far is as follows:

St James Gazette, 10th November 1888
"Harvey... remained friendly with [Kelly], who visited her in New Court on Thursday night. After drinking together they parted at half past seven o'clock, Kelly going off in the direction of Leman Street... She was perfectly sober at the time [my underlines]. Harvey never saw her alive afterwards".

The same story, almost verbatim, is carried by the Times, the Evening News, the Star, and the Irish Times.


A few interesting things arise from the above. For one thing, the story flat-out contradicts Harvey's statement that she was with Kelly in Miller's Court when Barnett arrived - a fairly minor point, I'll admit. However, the statement that Kelly was "perfectly sober" when she left Harvey is quite clear, and the reference to drink is rather ambiguous - "after drinking" could refer to anything. That said, irrespective whether it was tea or beer, Kelly is said to have called in on Thursday night, parting with Harvey at 19:30. Could this have been a swift couple of halves in the Britannia during the early evening, perhaps? At any rate, this clearly doesn't support the idea that Kelly had been on the pop all afternoon, so I assume that the reports to which you refer appeared in different papers?
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.