Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Scene of the Crimes: The Bucks Row Project Summary Report. - by Elamarna 4 minutes ago.
Scene of the Crimes: The Bucks Row Project Summary Report. - by Elamarna 7 minutes ago.
Scene of the Crimes: The Bucks Row Project Summary Report. - by Jon Guy 7 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Batman 7 minutes ago.
Scene of the Crimes: The Bucks Row Project Summary Report. - by Jon Guy 16 minutes ago.
Scene of the Crimes: The Bucks Row Project Summary Report. - by Fisherman 17 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Mary Ann Nichols: What Direction Was Polly Travelling When She Was Killed? - (43 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: The Bucks Row Project Summary Report. - (31 posts)
Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman): Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?. - (8 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (3 posts)
Bury, W.H.: Bury's friend - (3 posts)
Doctors and Coroners: Sedgewick Saunders ....... why did he say the things he said ? - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #61  
Old 07-16-2015, 12:03 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,126
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
The reference to his visiting his sister in Romford is in just about all the contemporary press reports, Debs. Hutch's police statement also records the Romford visit, even if it doesn't explicitly mention his sister in connection with it.
Well, that's a new one on me then. Gareth!
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 07-16-2015, 12:19 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,126
Default

I don't think I'm alone in thinking it's a myth either:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19219

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...3&postcount=36
http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...0&postcount=39

PS I know his police statement says he was in Romford-that's why I mentioned the casual ward discussion.
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

Last edited by Debra A : 07-16-2015 at 12:27 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 07-16-2015, 12:36 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 10,758
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
I don't think I'm alone in thinking it's a myth either
You're in good company, Debs, so I'll join you. It does indeed seem that, whilst the walk from Romford was reported, the story of his visiting his sister there seems to have appeared out of nowhere.

That nugget emerged during my sabbatical from the message boards, so forgive me!

You learn something old every day
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Gtzendmmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 07-16-2015, 12:48 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,126
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
You're in good company, Debs, so I'll join you. It does indeed seem that, whilst the walk from Romford was reported, the story of his visiting his sister there seems to have appeared out of nowhere.

That nugget emerged during my sabbatical from the message boards, so forgive me!

You learn something old every day
No worries, Gareth. I believed it for ages!
I tend to think Bob Hinton's book was a major influence on the idea rather than it coming from nowhere.
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 09-15-2015, 09:34 AM
Ben Ben is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,843
Default

I’m rather surprised to see we’re doing Toppy all over again. I guess the mammoth “Hutch in the 1911 census” thread somehow failed, with its 2420 posts, to cover all angles.

Just briefly, and with all due respect to my former combatants on this issue, Toppy is a very poor candidate for the “witness” of Kelly notoriety, in my opinion, not least because his first appearance was in the “Ripper and the Royals”, a revisionist take on Stephen Knight’s “royal conspiracy” theory, which was published in 1993 and ultimately discredited by its own author. Amongst an assortment of gems in this book, which includes the infamous “Abberline diary", is an account of an interview with one Reginald Hutchinson who claimed his father was paid hush money to keep quiet about seeing one of the soon-to-be-murdered victims in the company of Lord Randolph Churchill. Various other high profile ripper-researchers got wind of Reginald’s claims around the same time, but each decided – after smelling a serious rat – that it wasn’t worth pursuing as genuine history.

There was no doubt that the Reginald in question was the son of George William Topping Hutchinson, born in Norwood in 1866, but the latter’s background and employment history is totally irreconcilable with what little can be gleaned about the Victoria Home “witness”. The former was described as a plumber who was “rarely, if ever, out of work” – understandable, considering that his father’s employment in the same occupation would have ensured an early apprenticeship and entry into the trade – whereas “our” Hutchinson was living in the worst slum area of the East End 1888 as a groom by trade, now working as a labourer, and had been for a least three years (assuming there is any truth to his claim to have known Kelly for three years, when the latter was living at Breezer’s Hill in St. George-in-the-East).

Those who seek to amalgamate the two men haven’t quite managed to explain how or why a 19-year-old Toppy would spurn the opportunity of an early and relatively speedy entry into a coveted and well-paid trade, choosing a significantly lower-rung avenue of employment, failing to secure regular work in that capacity, and living in self-imposed destitution in the worst part of the East End for at least three years before suddenly becoming a fully-fledged plumber with a West End address by 1891. The standard period of a plumbing apprenticeship was seven years, and in 1886 there had been a crackdown on “bodgers” and those taking shortcuts into the trade, rendering it extremely unlikely that a labouring former groom could transform into a “rarely, if ever, out if work” plumber in less than three years.

There is no evidence of any connection between Toppy and the East End of London until the former met his wife at a music hall, who happened to hail from the East End, in contrast to several unexplored “George Hutchinsons” who appear in the East End on census records.

Finally, we have the handwriting comparison, and the only document examiner of any repute to compare the original documents, Sue Iremonger, stated at the 1993 World Association of Document Examiners conference that whoever signed the 1888 statement – three times, and very differently – was not the signatory on Toppy’s 1898 marriage certificate. Toppy supporters who argue for a similarity tend to gloss over the fact that of the three statement signatures, only one can be argued to have some resemblance to any of Toppy’s efforts – the other two being completely dissimilar. Moreover, when comparing signatures, document examiners have repeatedly stressed the importance of using the original documents, as opposed to photocopied images on a screen, which can often create the misleading impression of being the same size and angle, when in reality they were nothing of the sort.

The hunt for the “real” George Hutchinson isn’t over yet, but Toppy he wasn’t, in my opinion.

All the best,
Ben

P.S. Sorry, I had to say something to drag them off the Crossmere threads!

Last edited by Ben : 09-15-2015 at 09:42 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 09-15-2015, 10:09 PM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,664
Default

Ben, very interesting and informative post.

I looked at the comparison of the Hutchinson signatures earlier in this thread, and all I can see are differences in slant, uprightness, letter formation, the height of the "t" crossbar (which also varies between being half missing to going straight across the top of the name to the second "h"), to the beginning of the capital "H"-- and I really don't see the great similarity others do in these signatures.
Sorry, everyone.
__________________
Pat D.
---------------
Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
---------------
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 09-16-2015, 06:23 AM
Ben Ben is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,843
Default

Thanks, Pat!

I agree entirely with your assessment of the differences. They undoubtedly played a role in Iremonger's professional verdict that Toppy was not the Hutchinson who signed the statement.

All the best,
Ben
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 09-16-2015, 08:06 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,304
Default

Hi.
Just to repeat..the account of the witness Hutchinson, was aired in the mid 1970's, and the payment issue, [ the exact sum recalled in the book] was told by the alleged son of that witness,.it was not a scoop for 'The Ripper and the Royals..'
But I always fall on deaf ears.
Regards Richard.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 09-16-2015, 09:01 AM
curious4 curious4 is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,748
Default Plumbers

I have been trying to find out more about plumbers and how they learned their trade and have discovered that in America at least there were opportunities to learn on the job as plumbers were needed in great numbers at this time. If this also applied in England, Hutchinson could well have become a plumber in a shorter time and without an apprenticeship.

Best wishes
C4
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.