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Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Busy Beaver 2 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Fisherman 8 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Abby Normal 8 minutes ago.
Torso Killings: JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful. - by Fisherman 13 minutes ago.
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Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - (59 posts)
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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #3071  
Old 04-15-2018, 09:35 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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That’s a great question Sam, and a good point. It definitely points to a different killer in this case.
Hi sam
I’ve had a little more time to think about this. So the difference of pinchin torso having head removed with knife only and no saw could be as you said, a different killer than torso man, who used a saw also. It’s also different dump location as well, which also points to a different killer.

I’m wondering though if it is torsoman both could be explained that he killed her in a different location than the others, closer to ripper territory, and this not usual place he didn’t have a saw there.

However, both the differences are actually more in line with the ripper-same location and no saw used, plus it had the vertical cut to the abdomen,so could be a link between the too.

It’s definitely the odd one out though for sure, for both series.
Or could be viewed as a link.

Need to ruminate on it some more.
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  #3072  
Old 04-15-2018, 09:39 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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You really are incredibly irritating. The Ripper cut his victims' throats, period. Stop trying to rewrite history, and stop trying to change the way in which we use the English language.
But sam, he also cut the neck and the arteries. But I see what your saying “cutting throats” is the more popular phrase. At least these days. I think that’s the hang up.
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #3073  
Old 04-15-2018, 09:59 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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I’m wondering though if it is torsoman both could be explained that he killed her in a different location than the others, closer to ripper territory, and this not usual place he didn’t have a saw there.
Hi Abby,

My thoughts, exactly. Going off Hebberts report it sounds like the head came off later than the legs.

"The cut surfaces at the hips were black and dry, but the surface at the neck moist and red." -Hebbert

"On moving the body I found that there was a little blood underneath where the neck had lain. It was small in quantity and not clotted. The blood had oozed from the cut surface of the neck."- Dr. Clarke


Maybe he didn't have the time to cut off the head in his normal location (he was interrupted) so the body was moved and head cut off at a later time and a different place?
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  #3074  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:13 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi sam
I’ve had a little more time to think about this. So the difference of pinchin torso having head removed with knife only and no saw could be as you said, a different killer than torso man, who used a saw also. It’s also different dump location as well, which also points to a different killer.

I’m wondering though if it is torsoman both could be explained that he killed her in a different location than the others, closer to ripper territory, and this not usual place he didn’t have a saw there.
It just seems too convoluted/contrived for the "one true Torso Killer" to have gone "Oops! I've killed this one too far away from home, so I'll just have to make do with me knife". Far more likely that there was no "one true Torso Killer" and that Pinchin Street was the work of a different perpetrator than the others.
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  #3075  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:25 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Correct - to the back or the side, but not the front, which is overwhelmingly referred to as "the throat" in everyday, and even technical, speech.

You can "suffer a cut to the neck" accidentally (e.g. at the barber shop, or whilst shaving), indeed it's quite common and can be fixed relatively simply; either with a styptic pencil, a band-aid or stitches. Cut throats, on the other hand, don't tend to be the result of accidents but deliberate actions, are a lot more serious and harder to fix - if they can be fixed at all. It's for this reason that throat-cutting (as opposed to neck cutting) is an age-old method used by villains, or suicides, to quickly sever the carotid arteries and bring about death.

When was the last time you heard someone threaten to "cut someone's neck", for example? It's almost unheard of, but "I'll cut your throat!" turns up frequently in literature and elsewhere.

Correct again, except to refer to the slashed throats of the Ripper victims as "cut necks" is even more unspecific and misleading. Their throats were cut, period, just like we've been saying, correctly and accurately, for 130 years.
The cuts to the neck suffered I read about were mainly what you would insist on calling cuts to the throat, though. There were +20000 entries, mind you.

Last edited by Fisherman : 04-15-2018 at 10:34 AM.
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  #3076  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:27 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi sam
I’ve had a little more time to think about this. So the difference of pinchin torso having head removed with knife only and no saw could be as you said, a different killer than torso man, who used a saw also. It’s also different dump location as well, which also points to a different killer.

I’m wondering though if it is torsoman both could be explained that he killed her in a different location than the others, closer to ripper territory, and this not usual place he didn’t have a saw there.

However, both the differences are actually more in line with the ripper-same location and no saw used, plus it had the vertical cut to the abdomen,so could be a link between the too.

It’s definitely the odd one out though for sure, for both series.
Or could be viewed as a link.

Need to ruminate on it some more.
You may want to do that in company with Hebbert. He entertained no doubt about who the originator was, and he was eminently suited to know.

It could have been as easy as a wish to try to take the head off with a knife.
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  #3077  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:29 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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But sam, he also cut the neck and the arteries. But I see what your saying “cutting throats” is the more popular phrase. At least these days. I think that’s the hang up.
And WHAT a hang-up! If the general idea was to obscure that the necks in both series were cut all the way around and down to the bone with a sharp knife, I´d say it´s a job well done.

Last edited by Fisherman : 04-15-2018 at 10:41 AM.
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  #3078  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:31 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Going off Hebberts report it sounds like the head came off later than the legs
That wouldn't mean that the legs and head were cut off in different locations, though, only at different times - i.e. the body was broken down and the bits carried away in stages; an indicator, perhaps, that this particular killer didn't have access to private transport.
Quote:
"The cut surfaces at the hips were black and dry, but the surface at the neck moist and red." -Hebbert
Which would be congruent with a "staged" dismemberment, taking place perhaps over a few days. Alternatively, the blackness/dryness at the hips might just have been because the torso had been stored standing on its stumps, on a dirty, dusty floor.
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  #3079  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:32 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Hi Abby,

My thoughts, exactly. Going off Hebberts report it sounds like the head came off later than the legs.

"The cut surfaces at the hips were black and dry, but the surface at the neck moist and red." -Hebbert

"On moving the body I found that there was a little blood underneath where the neck had lain. It was small in quantity and not clotted. The blood had oozed from the cut surface of the neck."- Dr. Clarke


Maybe he didn't have the time to cut off the head in his normal location (he was interrupted) so the body was moved and head cut off at a later time and a different place?
My own personal guess is that he sometimes involved the head very much in what he did - the 1873 torso, Kate Eddowes, Mary Kelly - while on other occasions. he may have concentrated on other parts - Chapman - owing to how he had a very broad agenda. If he did what I think he did, there was (at least sometimes) good reason to leave the head in place until he was done.

But this is a guess only.

The thing is, if my guess is on the money, we should not expect him to strive for the same kind of result on every occasion.

Last edited by Fisherman : 04-15-2018 at 10:36 AM.
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  #3080  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:46 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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I'll repost this clip I found a couple of years ago. Any thoughts?

The Echo September 16, 1889

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