Who was Julia?!

[Suzi]

Interesting stuff here Chris!- Well- if 'Ms Van Turney' and 'Ms Harvey' -(Hate the phrase Ms but not knowing a) the name and b) the 'marital status '-that'll have to do I suppose!) - were one and the same- we have a serious can of worms here- OK- both were of the 'Laundress' "profession" [allegedly] - and both were inclined to stay for various reasons- with Mary- I also have a ghastly/sneaky feeling that they were one and the same person -BUT which one of the 'two' left-those various bits and pieces well known by us all - and which one was there when Joe 'popped in'??? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

- After all it wasn't unknown to change the old name was it...AND---- that's before we get into the Joes and the Daniels!!!!...The sightings in The Horn of Plenty/Blue Coat Boy/Britannia and pubs various etc etc etc always entrances me....

Gawd- this is almost as interesting as the US election! (Her hum!)

Suz x

[Chris Scott]

Hi Suz
I think the idea that Venturney and Harvey were one and the same person would have to overcome one huge obstacle - namely, that both gave evidence at the Kelly inquest and I think the coroner might have noticed the same woman giving evidence twice under two different names!

Julia Vanturney [Van Turney], 1, Miller's-court, a charwoman, living with Harry Owen, said: I knew the deceased for some time as Kelly, and I knew Joe Barnett, who lived with her. He would not allow her to go on the streets. Deceased often got drunk. She said she was fond of another man, also named Joe. I never saw this man. I believe he was a costermonger.
[Coroner] When did you last see the deceased alive ? - On Thursday morning, at about ten o'clock. I slept in the court on Thursday night, and went to bed about eight. I could not rest at all during the night.
[Coroner] Did you hear any noises in the court ? - I did not. I heard no screams of "Murder," nor any one singing.
[Coroner] You must have heard deceased singing ? - Yes; I knew her songs. They were generally Irish

Maria Harvey, 3, New-court, Dorset-street, stated: I knew the deceased as Mary Jane Kelly. I slept at her house on Monday night and on Tuesday night. All the afternoon of Thursday we were together.
[Coroner] Were you in the house when Joe Barnett called ? - Yes. I said, "Well, Mary Jane, I shall not see you this evening again," and I left with her two men's dirty shirts, a little boy's shirt, a black overcoat, a black crepe bonnet with black satin strings, a pawn-ticket for a grey shawl, upon which 2s had been lent, and a little girls white petticoat.
[Coroner] Have you seen any of these articles since? - Yes; I saw the black overcoat in a room in the court on Friday afternoon.
[Coroner] Did the deceased ever speak to you about being afraid of any man ? - She did not.

Chris

[Suzi]

Exactly! Blimey now we have a problem....Where did this start?? Who was Julia- OK back to the Van Turney...
They HAVE to be different people -of course- but why all these- I saw her with Dan and Julia /Maria was there-bits and pieces? -Oh blimey time for bed me I suppose-early to work tomorrow but will have a think....Hmmmm

I do love the quote- 'Yes I knew all of her songs' ! Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm definately time for bed me before I get a quote like that!!!!!

As a by the by was No 1 Millers Ct next to or above No 3??

Suz x

[Sam Flynn]

Ventura?

Hi Chris,

I'm not sure whether it's been discussed in the past, but have we ruled out Julia "Ventura" who, unlike Venteney, at least seems to have had rather strong Christchurch Spitalfields connections throughout her 20s and 30s?

1871 Census Return for 11 Alexandra Buildings, Christchurch, Spitalfields
Abraham Ventura (Head), 31, b. Holland. Cigar Maker
Julia (Wife), 28, b. Holland.
Joseph (Son), 7, b. Middlesex. Scholar
Michael (Son), 6, b. Middlesex. Scholar
Rebecca (Daur), 4, b. Middlesex. Scholar
Judah (Son), 2, b. Middlesex.
Moss (Son), 4 months, b. Middlesex

1881 Census Return for 11, Fashion Court, Christchurch, Spitalfields
Abraham Ventura (Head), 38, b. Holland. Cigar Maker
Julia (Wife), 41, b. Holland. Cigar Maker
Rebecca (Daur), 14, b. Spitalfields. Cigar Maker
Sarah (Daur), 8, b. Spitalfields. Scholar
Rose (Daur), 6, b. Spitalfields. Scholar
Joseph (Son), 17, b. Spitalfields. Cigar Maker
Judah (Son), 12, b. Middx Spitalfields. Scholar
Moss (Son), 10, b. Spitalfields. Scholar
Isaac (Son), 4, b. Spitalfields. Scholar
Samuel (Son), "Month 4"[?], b. Spitalfields.

1891 Census Return for 32 Rutland Street, Mile End
Abraham Ventura (Head), 62, b. Holland. Cigar Maker
Culia [sic. - Julia] (Wife), 56, b. Holland
Michael (Son), 26, b. Shoreditch. D___ [illegible] Polishing Gold
Rebeca (Daur), 34, b. Shoreditch. Seamstress (Shirt)
Judah (Son), 22, b. Shoreditch. Tailor
Moss (Son), 20, b. Bethnal Green. Shoemaker
Sarah (Daur), 18, b. Bethnal Green. Teacher of Piano Music
Rachael (Daur), 16, b. MEOT [Mile End Old Town]. Seamstress (Shirt)
Isaac (Son), 14, b. MEOT. Tailor
Rose (Daur), 12, b. MEOT. Scholar
Elias (Son), 8, b. MEOT. Scholar

1901 Census Return for 10 Parfett Street, Mile End
Julia Ventura (Wid), 31, b. Holland. Kept up
Judah (Son), 31, b. London. Cloth cutter
Rachelle (Daur), 25, b. London. Bonnet Trimmer
Isaac (Son), 23, b. London. Rough stuff cutter (Boot)
Eleazar (Son), 18, b. London. Rough stuff cutter
Rose (Daur), 21, b. London. Domestic (at home)

BMD Death Index, 1837-1983
Julia Ventura, b. 1841. Death Registered Jul-Aug-Sep 1918, Mile End Old Town.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Gareth
Thanks for that info
I did see Ms Ventura when I was tracking down Julia Venturney for the Cast of Thousands book. Venturney was English, not German, born Julia Cook, and married a man named Antony Venteney (the correct spelling of her name) by whom she had two daughters.
Full details of what I found can be seen at

http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/castofthousands.julia-venturney.html

Regards
Chris

[Sam Flynn]

Cheers, Chris, and thanks for the link.

[Pippin Joan]

In the Ipswich Journal of 16 November 1888, an article about the Kelly murders includes this:
"A woman, who is known by the name of Julia, and who was in the habit of continually visiting Kelly's room, states that she knew she had two cotton shirts there. These the police are unable to find."

I would imagine that newspapers would be guilty of picking each others bones and sticking together bits of information like the name Julia as the overnight guest, and Mrs. Harveys laundry list, as the stories are similar. Could it be possible that Joe Barnett used the name Julia as a way to not let Mrs. Harvey be involved. She ended up telling her story, but at least Joe had diverted any suspicion of prostitution from her character.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Joan
We do not know how well Barnett knew Harvey - obviously he knew of her being about Kelly as she was present at his and Kelly's last meeting, but he does not to refer to her by name.
About that last meeting on the Thursday evening, Harvey said:
[Coroner] Were you in the house when Joe Barnett called ? - Yes. I said, "Well, Mary Jane, I shall not see you this evening again," and I left with her two men's dirty shirts etc.
but Barnett said:
[Coroner] Was there any one else there on the Thursday evening ? - Yes, a woman who lives in the court. She left first, and I followed shortly afterwards.
I know of no reason why Barnett would feel any need to protect Harvey or her reputation by inventing the name of Julia to cover her identity. The use of more than one name - or even multiple names - is common to many characters in the Ripper story.
Martha Tabram was also known as Martha Turner and allegedly used the name Kelly
Mary Ann Nichols was known as Polly
Annie Chapman was known as Dark Annie and Annie Sivvey or Siffey
Liz Stride was known as Long Liz
Catherine Eddowes was also known as Kate Conway and gave the name Mary Ann Kelly
Kelly herself was also known as Ginger, Black Mary and Barnett insisted that her real names were Marie Jeanette. The other names in early reports - Mary Jane Lawrence and Lizzie Fisher - if not journalistic inventions, may have been picked up from people in the Dorset Street area
Alice McKenzie was also known as Alice Bryant and was reported as using the name Kelly, and had the nickname Clay Pipe Alice
Francis Coles was also known as Coleman, Hawkins and Carrotty Nell

One's attitude also depends on the interpretation of the nature of Millers Court and its inhabitants. Were all the women, or a significant number, engaged in at least casual prostitution,if not more? Of the women who gave evidence, the only one whose testimony and movements support the idea that she was working the streets was Mary Ann Cox. She said she was an unfortunate and got her living from the streets.
With regard to Harvey, the substantial amount of clothing she left with Kelly would lend support to her claim that she worked as a laundress. This does not preclude the possibility that she was also casually engaged in prostitution but there is no evidence for that.

I do not know whether Julia and Maria Harvey were one and the same - but the reason I posted the snippet from the press cutting was it was the first time I had seen this implied.
Regards
Chris

[Carrotty Nell]

Hello Chris

-Because she had a woman of bad character there, whom she took in out of compassion, and I objected to it.
-Yes, a woman who lives in the court. She left first, and I followed shortly afterwards.

These are two quotes from Barnett at the inquest, and in between these two quotes there were just three interrogative exchanges with the coroner. Nothing about these two quotes gives the impression that he is referring to the same woman in both. Wouldn't you expect him to say, in the second quote 'yes, the bad woman I just mentioned'?

[Pippin Joan]

All so true, Chris. People had a lot of "street names", like Catherine Eddowes' pawning of clothes under different names. Especially in the markets, people took on by-names. My point was that newspapers seemed to circulate some vague rumours at times, based on actual interviews. Also, as opposed to some who see some ulterior motive in Joe Barnett, I tend to see him as a well-meaning man who had affection for Kelly, but was fed up with her obvious descent into a low life. We see so many people who covered up their miserable lives with claims of occupations like "laundress" or "charwoman", when they would do that if the chance came up, but would not hesitate to resort to prostitution if hungry enough. There seems to be such a tendency to "not speak ill of the dead" when describing the victims, focussing on their positive traits and claiming not to know about any illicit occupations. Poor Mary Jane, from Barnett's words, was in with a bad crowd because she was too tender-hearted. Looking at MJK’s history of addresses, it seems she was mostly kicked out for her alcohol-related behavior.

From the Casebook:
Joseph Barnett says that he "always found her of sober habits." (Love is blind?)Landlord John McCarthy says "When in liquor she was very noisy; otherwise she was a very quiet woman."
Caroline Maxwell says that she "was not a notorious character." (ie., a prostitute)Catherine Pickett claims "She was a good, quiet, pleasant girl, and was well liked by all of us."
Joseph Barnett and Mrs. Carthy, a woman with whom she lived at one time, say that she came from a family that was "fairly well off" (Barnett) and "well to do people" (Carthy). Mrs. Carthy also states that Kelly was "an excellent scholar and an artist of no mean degree." Some of the delusions of grandeur MJK liked to impress on people?)Mrs. Carthy is the landlady from Breezer's Hill, Ratcliffe Highway. Barnett refers to her house as "a bad house." (More ‘bad crowd’ talk from Barnett?)
Mrs. Pheonix says… that Mary Jane was very abusive and quarrelsome when she was drunk but "one of the most decent and nice girls you could meet when sober."
12:30 AM: Catherine Picket, a flower seller who lives near Kelly, is disturbed by Kelly's singing. Picket's husband stops her from going down stairs to complain. "You leave the poor woman alone." he says. (Does this imply that the neighbours viewed MJK as a somewhat pitiful character?)

[Chava]

A couple of things occur to me:

Firstly, why was Mary Jane Kelly known as 'Black Mary' if she had fair hair? From what I can tell, those names were generally descriptive and are to this day. I'd assume very dark or black hair if she had this nickname.

Secondly, if Kelly was allowing other prostitutes to stay in her room, how did they work the logistics of it? Did the other women stay out and deal with their customers in other places and then meet up with Kelly down at the 10 Bells after everyone was done? It looks to me like there was a lot of traffic in and out of 13 Millers Court that week. The killer was lucky he didn't run into a homeless whore on the way out...

[Chris Scott]

From what I remember (and I will dig out the source) Kelly was known as Black Mary not in reference to her appearance but her moods, especially when she had been drinking

[Chris Scott]

Tom Cullen has this to say about "Black Mary":
"I talked to a retired market porter named Dennis Barrett who, as a boy, had known Black Mary by sight. 'She was a handsome woman," Barrett recalled, 'tall and rather stout. She had her pitch outside the Ten Bells pub in Commerial Street, and woe to any woman who tried to poach her territory - such a woman was likely to have her hair pulled out in fistfuls.'"

However, I have definitely seen contemporary press reports telling a similar story, that Kelly was known as Black Mary because of her argumentative and aggressive behaviour when drunk. I will try and find an instance of this and post it
Chris

[Chris Scott]

I can only find one likely candidate for this Dennis Barrett, who would have been 16 at the time of the murders


1891 Census
2 Johns Place, Bermondsey
Head: Dennis Barrett aged 42 born Gravesend - Fish porter
Wife: Mary A Barrett aged 40 born Bethnal Green
Children:
Dennis aged 19 born Bethnal Green - Stationer's packer
John aged 17 born Bermondsey - Errand Boy
Elizabeth aged 3 months born Bermondsey

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I have always believed the term 'Black Mary' was given to Kelly because she was in a habit of wearing a black velvet jacket.
Regards Richard.