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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #3971  
Old 05-08-2018, 05:20 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
They are linked in that:

They occur in the same city.

The Torso's from 87-89 are in the sametime scale as the 88 series.

The bodies are female and a knife is used in both series.

Those are the hard definitive links.

The rest is interpretation by various researchers.


Steve
So it is "interpretation" that Kelly, Chapman and Jackson are linked by a number of other things? The taking away of their uteri is not a fact, it is "interpretation"?

That´s not very impressive on your behalf, is it?
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  #3972  
Old 05-08-2018, 05:22 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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[That the victims were - allegedly - all prostitutes] is extremely relevant for the discussion, since it tells us that as far as we can tell, the victimology is the same in this respect.
Victimology means next to nothing when it comes to prostitute killings, Fish. Prostitutes are easy targets, picked on by ruffians and killers since time immemorial, and there were plenty of them in London. There were also many poor women who weren't prostitutes, others who were runaways, and a huge number of wives, girlfriends and mistresses all of whom could have fallen foul of the West London Torso Killer.
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 05-08-2018 at 05:26 AM.
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  #3973  
Old 05-08-2018, 05:26 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Not for the series, no, but statistical significance never enters the errand if the similarity/ies is specific and/or many enough.
If you had your way, no two cases could ever be connected since statistics demanded dictates that two cases are too few. Sorry, Steve, but it does not work that way.

Totally wrong, in which case i would be the the camp of several killers for The Whitechapel murders, i am not. I see certain links between Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes and in all probability Kelly. Stride i see as a highly possible along with Mackenzie.

I also see links to earlier attacks but unlikely to include Smith.
My friend you are incorrect in your assumptions.


Steve
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  #3974  
Old 05-08-2018, 05:26 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post

The police force you quoted yesterday, what files did they see and what was the content of those files please.

1. Show a firm link between the two series of murders, one which is not reliant on generalisations of supposed similarities.

2. Direct conclusive EVIDENCE, that Lechmere can be linked to either Series.

Steve
Which quote is that?

1. you have had the links, and they are not supposed similarities. The one doing all the supposing is you. Like "strips", for example. I go with the facts, and the facts link Chapman, Kelly and Jackson and therefore the series.

2. Lechmere was at one of the murder scenes at the approxiamte time of the murder. That is a link to one series.

I am reasoning on sound and viable grounds that the series are linked, and I am reasoning on sound and viable grounds that Lechmere was the killer. I have never said that I have definite proof of either thing, but I think that the evidence points in this direction.

So this is the last time you ask me for proof. It is an exercise in timewasting - and we all knew that before you opened your mouth.
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  #3975  
Old 05-08-2018, 05:31 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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So it is "interpretation" that Kelly, Chapman and Jackson are linked by a number of other things? The taking away of their uteri is not a fact, it is "interpretation"?

That´s not very impressive on your behalf, is it?

Actually it is!
Its intreptation that the uteri removal of Jackson is for any other reason than removal of a unborn infant, it is interpretation that it is in anyway linked to or comparable to the removals from Chapman and Eddowes in either motive or procedure.


Steve
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  #3976  
Old 05-08-2018, 05:32 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Victimology means next to nothing when it comes to prostitute killings, Fish. Prostitutes are easy targets, picked on by ruffians and killers since time immemorial, and there were plenty of them in London. There were also many poor women who weren't prostitutes, others who were runaways, and a huge number of wives, girlfriends and mistresses all of whom could have fallen foul of the West London Torso Killer.
You need to take a long hard look at the correlation between prostitution and serial murder.
And then you need to take a long hard look at how you judge matters.
And then you need to adjust to reality.

It does not matter one iot that there were many women on the streets who could - in your mind - be suitable targets for the killer since we have no idea whether he actively sought out prostitutes or not. In which case it is of paramount interest if a victim had that background or not.

Until we know, my suggestion is that we do not drop our knowledge that 100 per cent of the victims that have been identified in the two series were prostituting themselves. Instead, we regard that as a potentially decisive and important factor. Thank you very much!

Anybody else out here who thinks that the prostitution factor is "irrelevant"?
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  #3977  
Old 05-08-2018, 05:36 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Actually it is!
Its intreptation that the uteri removal of Jackson is for any other reason than removal of a unborn infant, it is interpretation that it is in anyway linked to or comparable to the removals from Chapman and Eddowes in either motive or procedure.


Steve
"For any other reason than removal of an unborn infant"?

It is "interpretation" not to agree with this?

I see. It explains a whole lot.

I always though that we worked from a perspective of no established knowledge about the exact reason why he took Jacksons uterus out. I sort of thought that was the starting point.

I have now been corrected - the starting point is that we know that he did so to remove the unborn infant.

Sweet Jesus. I didn´t think it had gone that far, I really did not. It is as interllectually corrupt as it can be, Steve. It is bonkers.

I am out for now. You need a cold bath and some afterthought. Or lots of it.
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  #3978  
Old 05-08-2018, 05:47 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Which quote is that?

The one you posted yesterday, the police in Eslöv, you said they belived a link based on 5 files, i simply asked what those files were? What information did they contain?


1. you have had the links, and they are not supposed similarities. The one doing all the supposing is you. Like "strips", for example. I go with the facts, and the facts link Chapman, Kelly and Jackson and therefore the series.

if the "links" are not established as being significant, that is proven, which i hate to tell you they are not, they remain supposed.

2. Lechmere was at one of the murder scenes at the approxiamte time of the murder. That is a link to one series.

No that is a link to one murder, not a series. There are many researchers who beleive one hand is not responsible for all the c5, i am not one, but their views are not to be totally ignored.

Show me a link to Kelly, a direct link, not one based on supposition and interpretation.

I am reasoning on sound and viable grounds that the series are linked, and I am reasoning on sound and viable grounds that Lechmere was the killer. I have never said that I have definite proof of either thing, but I think that the evidence points in this direction.

So this is the last time you ask me for proof. It is an exercise in timewasting - and we all knew that before you opened your mouth.

No its not the last time i shall ask for proof to back unproven theories, if howevet you are not prepared to answer it speaks volumes.

You have no proof as you have just said, that is no issue, everyone is entitled to their theories.
However when you then say people are bias or ignorant/ill informaed when they will not accept said unproven theories one should expect serious questioning of ones views.

Steve

Last edited by Elamarna : 05-08-2018 at 05:50 AM.
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  #3979  
Old 05-08-2018, 06:03 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
"For any other reason than removal of an unborn infant"?

It is "interpretation" not to agree with this?

I see. It explains a whole lot.

I always though that we worked from a perspective of no established knowledge about the exact reason why he took Jacksons uterus out. I sort of thought that was the starting point.

I have now been corrected - the starting point is that we know that he did so to remove the unborn infant.

Sweet Jesus. I didn´t think it had gone that far, I really did not. It is as interllectually corrupt as it can be, Steve. It is bonkers.

I am out for now. You need a cold bath and some afterthought. Or lots of it.


Not at all.
Only half a quote.the full quote:

"Its intreptation that the uteri removal of Jackson is for any other reason than removal of a unborn infant,. it is interpretation that it is in anyway linked to or comparable to the removals from Chapman and Eddowes in either motive or procedure."

Has a somewhat different meaning than that you imply, any reason for the removal is interpretation, however jackson was pregnant and the uterus was discarded minus said infant, removal of said infant must therefore be a high probability for removal. That of course is interpretation in itself, just as any other proposed reason is.
The point being that these "similarities" are at present not established as anything more than a superficial link.

However nice to see your training never fails you.


Steve

Last edited by Elamarna : 05-08-2018 at 06:12 AM.
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  #3980  
Old 05-08-2018, 06:41 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Quote:
. 2. Lechmere was at one of the murder scenes at the approxiamte time of the murder. That is a link to one series.

So was John Davis and Louis Diemschutz. Lechmere certainly was at the scene. He found the body. You categorically cannot link him to the other crimes though.

I am reasoning on sound and viable grounds that the series are linked, and I am reasoning on sound and viable grounds that Lechmere was the killer. I have never said that I have definite proof of either thing, but I think that the evidence points in this direction.
Nope. All that you have is that he was there (like Davis and Diemschutz). Thats all.
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