Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Observer 2 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by rjpalmer 2 hours ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Observer 2 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Sam Flynn 2 hours ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Observer 2 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Abby Normal 3 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - (13 posts)
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - (9 posts)
General Discussion: The Weapon - (3 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Kansas Physician Confirms Howard Report - (3 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (2 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 02-26-2012, 10:25 PM
timsta timsta is offline
Cadet
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 14
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Be sure to let me know when anyone locates a "Johnto"; Welsh, Irish, Scot, or English, and with established etymology, if you please.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ianto

Regards
Timsta
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-27-2012, 05:07 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,645
Default

Was it yourself, timsta, who raised that a couple of years ago?

Yes, the suggestion is that "Yan-to" is "Ifan" (Ivan) which means the same as "John", but this does not mean "Johnto". Even in Welsh, "Johnto" does not exist. This is not claiming that Yanto is Johnto, only John.

Unless, Barnett misheard Kelly when she said Henry was nicknamed "Yanto", due to her accent?, he thought she said "Johnto"?, he would never have heard a name like Yanto.

That would explain it, but conflating "too" down to "to" is still very common.

It might be worth investigating if any other Henry's in Wales have been nicknamed "Yanto", and why, what is the connection to the name Henry?

Regards, Jon S.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-27-2012, 05:38 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
but conflating "too" down to "to" is still very common.

.
Jon, it might be a very good possibility to you, but it's certainly not a given, is it?

I was thinking that maybe Barnett did mishear and that the name could be something like the Irish 'Johnjoe' ?

Lynn...nothing.
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-27-2012, 05:43 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13,841
Default Johnto

Hello Debs. Thanks. "Johnston" sounds more Scots than Irish or Welsh.

Do we know how "Johnto" was pronounced? If there was a mishearing, the correct pronunciation would be helpful to know.

Cheers.
LC
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-27-2012, 05:57 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,120
Default

Lynn, he was from Berkshire.

I imagine Johnto was pronounced Jon-toe, thats why I think it may have been Johnjoe.
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-27-2012, 05:59 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13,841
Default Johnto, too.

Hello Debs. That was my take. Were it "Johntoo" that could make for quite a different mishearing.

Cheers.
LC
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-27-2012, 11:29 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,645
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
Jon, it might be a very good possibility to you, but it's certainly not a given, is it?
Debra.
Quite true, its just that many people write "to" for "too" today, so it is quite common.
Assume we accept "Yan-to" (Ivan), and because this does not appear to be Irish, then we might also have to accept the Kelly's did live in Wales for a time. I know some have doubted it.

I'd be interested if there is a tradition in Wales which connects "Ivan" with a "Henry"?
But, at the end of the day, be it either a misspelling "to" for "too", or mishearing, "Johnto" for "Yanto", it seem's pointless to look for either in military records, or a Welsh census.

Quote:
I was thinking that maybe Barnett did mishear and that the name could be something like the Irish 'Johnjoe' ?
Ah, like my grandfather, PC John Joseph Smyth, Dublin Metropolitan Police.
I don't recall him ever being called Johnjoe, but no doubt some were.

Regards, Jon S.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-28-2012, 01:56 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman
Debra.
Quite true, its just that many people write "to" for "too" today, so it is quite common.
It is, no denying that, a good friend of mine does the very same thing. So the mistake would be from someone other than Barnett in that case?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman
Assume we accept "Yan-to" (Ivan), and because this does not appear to be Irish, then we might also have to accept the Kelly's did live in Wales for a time. I know some have doubted it.
It would have to mean that his Welsh friends gave him that name? Or it would mean that MJK's story could not have been that accurate surely? She moved to Wales when young after being born in Ireland. Ianto would need to be much younger than MJK for his parents to have chosen a traditional Welsh name for him after their move to Wales?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman
But, at the end of the day, be it either a misspelling "to" for "too", or mishearing, "Johnto" for "Yanto", it seem's pointless to look for either in military records, or a Welsh census.
But if it was something like Johnjoe,then it's worth looking as this name does appear as a name in itself in the Irish census, that's all I'm saying:

Name:  johnjoe1.JPG
Views: 157
Size:  11.6 KB
Name:  johnjoe2.JPG
Views: 162
Size:  10.8 KB
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-28-2012, 02:45 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13,841
Default single name

Hello Debs. The entries look like single names. Unusual, but worth a go.

Thanks.

Cheers.
LC
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-28-2012, 02:27 PM
DrHopper DrHopper is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 114
Default

Ha!
About a year ago, I had a similar idea... even to the extent of pondering the relationship between brother and sister, his disapproval of his sister's life, and his access to 'bayonets' (think Martha Tabram)... food for thought.
Nothing came of the initial burst of enthusiasm as real life took over, but I think I have some notes jotted down somewhere which I will endeavour to post.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.