The Cachous

[John G]

Hello John. And why is her knot to the left, rather than right IF she is being dragged and her assailant is to the south?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Excellent point, which I think effectively disposes of this argument. Unless, of course, any posters want to risk tyeing themselves up in knots with their response!

[Batman]

Let me guess BSman doesn't have the capacity to silence her so we can dismiss him but drop that same line of reasoning for the mystery assassin who is capable of all the above because his not drunk or something. Right?

[Batman]

Hi Lynn,

Excellent point, which I think effectively disposes of this argument. Unless, of course, any posters want to risk tyeing themselves up in knots with their response!

Ridiculous because you're assuming you know what position the knot was in to begin with.

Lemme see... Knot on front. Pulling rear right hand side, knot moves to her left if knotted in front. Could stay where it was. Pulling rear left side would go to the right, or stay where it was.

See.

[John G]

Let me guess BSman doesn't have the capacity to silence her so we can dismiss him but drop that same line of reasoning for the mystery assassin who is capable of all the above because his not drunk or something. Right?

No, because like JtR he was more stealthy and caught her completely unaware from behind, giving her no time to respond.

[lynn cates]

Hold your hand out, knotty boy.

Hello John. Thanks.

Quite.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Facts

Her scarf was tight around her neck. That's strangulation but not manual. This will impact your vocal ability. Pressure to the voice box. Schwartz said she cried out but not very loudly. It doesn't take Einstein to figure out she was in the process of being silenced.

How was she in the process of being silenced? Are you arguing that BS man was trying to render Stride unconscious, and thereby silencing her, by repeatedly throwing her to the ground? If so, I can't see that it was a very successful strategy because, rather than being silenced, she screamed three times.

In my opinion strangulation or suffocation would have been more sensible silencing strategies than throwing someone to the ground.

[Batman]

Circles not mazes.

This is how silly the knot argument is getting.

Draw any circumference. Mark a point outside of the circumference and call it the left side. Now pick a point anywhere on the circle. Can you spin the circle left OR right to end up with the point on the left side? If you can then you have falsified there is only one direction that causes the point/knot to end up on the left side rendering that argument redundant.

[Jon Guy]

No, because like JtR he was more stealthy and caught her completely unaware from behind, giving her no time to respond.

Are you saying JTR cut their throats from behind, John ?

[John G]

Are you saying JTR cut their throats from behind, John ?

Hello Jon,

Yes, I think that's likely. That is also the view of Keppel et al (2005). I also think that this strategy may have evolved as a consequence of the messy attack on Tabram. Thus, it would enable the killer to limit the risk of blood getting on to his clothing, and also have the advantage of catching his victims by surprise. With a direct assault, the victim is likely to be forewarned and put up resistance, as well as having the opportunity to cry out for help, which is exactly what happens in Schwartz's account of the assault on Stride by BS man.

If, therefore, victims had been attacked from the front I would have expected to see signs of a struggle, i.e. defensive wounds to the wrist, and witnesses hearing screaming or other alarm calls. I would also have thought some of the victims would have been able to take advantage of an opportunity to escape. However, throughout the series there is little evidence of this.

[Batman]

One has to be careful conflating behavioural analysis with the science of forensics which for obvious reasons in this case firmly rejects rear based knife attacks.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon,

Yes, I think that's likely. That is also the view of Keppel et al (2005). I also think that this strategy may have evolved as a consequence of the messy attack on Tabram. Thus, it would enable the killer to limit the risk of blood getting on to his clothing, and also have the advantage of catching his victims by surprise. With a direct assault, the victim is likely to be forewarned and put up resistance, as well as having the opportunity to cry out for help, which is exactly what happens in Schwartz's account of the assault on Stride by BS man.

If, therefore, victims had been attacked from the front I would have expected to see signs of a struggle, i.e. defensive wounds to the wrist, and witnesses hearing screaming or other alarm calls. I would also have thought some of the victims would have been able to take advantage of an opportunity to escape. However, throughout the series there is little evidence of this.

Hi John

JTR didn`t cut the victims throats from behind.
He would have to be lying underneath them if he did.

Their throats were cut whilst they were lying down, and the killer by their side.

I hope this helps, I know this info this will require you to re-evaluate everything you know about JTR.

[John G]

One has to be careful conflating behavioural analysis with the science of forensics which for obvious reasons in this case firmly rejects rear based knife attacks.

Dr Blackwell believed Stride had been attacked from behind. In other cases, I feel it may be inferred. For instance, in Eddowes case there were no signs of a struggle, which I would have expected had she been subjected to a full-frontal assault.

[John G]

Hi John

JTR didn`t cut the victims throats from behind.
He would have to be lying underneath them if he did.

Their throats were cut whilst they were lying down, and the killer by their side.

I hope this helps, I know this info this will require you to re-evaluate everything you know about JTR.

Hi Jon,

Yes, I agree. I should have said that, in my opinion, they were assaulted from behind and then brought to the ground where their throats were then quickly cut, thus avoiding arterial spray. However, evidence suggests that they were rendered unconscious first, I.e. strangled/suffocated, and this may have occurred during a surprise rear assault.

[Jon Guy]

. However, evidence suggests that they were rendered unconscious first, I.e. strangled/suffocated, and this may have occurred during a surprise rear assault.

Why a rear attack. Do you have evidence for this ?

And, why wouldn`t the victims cry out or defend themselves ?

[lynn cates]

try it

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"Draw any circumference. Mark a point outside of the circumference and call it the left side. Now pick a point anywhere on the circle. Can you spin the circle left OR right to end up with the point on the left side? If you can then you have falsified there is only one direction that causes the point/knot to end up on the left side rendering that argument redundant."

Once again, you have managed to miss the point. The knot being to the left in addition to its being tight. Just grabbing the scarf on the circumference would NOT leave it tight.

In my re-enactment, I grabbed a tail of the slip knot and pulled. This decreased radius AND shifted it left.

Why not try this and see?

Cheers.
LC