Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Fisherman 1 minute ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Fisherman 6 minutes ago.
Scene of the Crimes: The Bucks Row Project Summary Report. - by caz 9 minutes ago.
Scene of the Crimes: The Bucks Row Project Summary Report. - by Harry D 12 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Fisherman 13 minutes ago.
Scene of the Crimes: The Bucks Row Project Summary Report. - by caz 45 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - (87 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim? - (16 posts)
Non-Fiction: Jack and the Thames Torso Murders: A New Ripper? - (16 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: The Bucks Row Project Summary Report. - (6 posts)
Bury, W.H.: The Spooners - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > General Suspect Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1291  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:29 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 4,425
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
no its not illogical. we don't know how long lech was with polly. no one saw him prior.

Thats my point.

We dont know for sure, but we do have the testimony of Lechmere who says he saw her moments before hearing Paul and Paul who only says he sees him ahead.
No mention of how far away and no mention of any movement before he says Lechmere
Is coming towards him.

To be odd Lechmere must be there earlier than he claims. There is no reliable source which indicates that. Paul's 3.45 is not reliable.

Yes we can use the suggestion as the starting point for a theory, But witbout evidence it remains just that.


Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1292  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:31 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 4,425
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
he el



well aman did give her a red hanky-so perhaps a little one? ; )
Love it Abby. Good one.

Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1293  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:32 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,771
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Thats my point.

We dont know for sure, but we do have the testimony of Lechmere who says he saw her moments before hearing Paul and Paul who only says he sees him ahead.
No mention of how far away and no mention of any movement before he says Lechmere
Is coming towards him.

To be odd Lechmere must be there earlier than he claims. There is no reliable source which indicates that. Paul's 3.45 is not reliable.

Yes we can use the suggestion as the starting point for a theory, But witbout evidence it remains just that.


Steve
I see what your saying-but the only one we have to count on is the man in question. he could be lying how long he was there, when he left home etc.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1294  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:32 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,183
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by caz View Post
Something of the sort, Robert, wouldn't surprise me in the least. Mizen would have been smarting and in damage limitation mode after Paul's very public condemnation of his attitude, especially if he had also failed to report his brief encounter with both men. Downplaying Paul's role could have been a snub, but he missed a trick if Paul really hadn't said a word or was far enough away not to have known or cared what Cross was saying.

Mizen could have made much more of this when asked by Baxter if Cross was with anyone else at the time. We can all imagine why Baxter asked the question, if Mizen was saying that 'a' man [Cross] spoke to him and made no mention initially of another man being there too. The newspaper account had Paul telling Mizen about the woman down, so Baxter understandably needed to clear this up and establish there were indeed two men involved in the reporting. It was Paul according to Paul, with the other man reduced to a cameo performance, while it was just Cross according to Mizen - until he admitted this other man - the cop hater - was there too. In light of Paul's scathing account, this was the golden opportunity for Mizen to put the boot in and say the other man kept his distance while Cross did the talking, if that was the truth of the matter, but no - he let Paul off the hook. Why? Because he knew very well that both men had reported the matter together and that Cross would confirm it?

Love,

Caz
X
... and then they lived happily ever after.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1295  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:34 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,183
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
I see what your saying-but the only one we have to count on is the man in question. he could be lying how long he was there, when he left home etc.
If he was the killer, then we can probably elevate that "could" to a "would".
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1296  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:35 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,183
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post

Yes we can use the suggestion as the starting point for a theory, But witbout evidence it remains just that.

Steve
Proven theories are no longer theories, you know. If it is proof you are talking about. If it is only evidence, then there is evidence that points to Lechmere as potentially being the killer. So much so, that James Scobie said it makes for a prima facie case that suggests that he was the killer.

Last edited by Fisherman : 06-13-2018 at 07:38 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1297  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:50 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 4,425
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
The epicentre is the area between Old Montague Street and Hanbury Street where Tabram, Nichols, Chapman and Kelly perished. Lechmere passed through there ate times that are seemingly consistent with all the murders, including Chapmans that was performed at the latest 4.30 according to Phillips.

Incorrect there, if Tabram is included it must be between whitechapel road and Hanbury street. George ysrd is off Old Montague agreed but south of it.
We have no source to suggest he ever used Old Montague as you well know. The only route we know he used is Hanbury. Everyother suggestion is just conjecture. That is fine but its not as conclusive as you suggest.
Basing TOD on RM alone is now known to be unreliable, Phillips's opinion is thus rendered equally unreliable, not becsuse he made any mistakes but because the science he applied honestly was faulty.


If you don´t see the potential relevance of this, then I won´t point out to you what that says about you. There has been too many degrading things said out here already.

The fact that you want to use the TOD for Kelly as given by Bond and Phillips as if either man must be correct says a whole deal about your bias. The bias of never admitting any possible guilt on Lechmeres´ behalf, no matter how ridiculous an excuse you must use. (And this is not the time to go on about how you have never said that Lechmere cannot be guilty; it would be very unbecoming).

Thank you for the revelation, Steve. One of many!

Are you saying we cant accept the TOD for Kelly by the Doctors?

If so then we NEITHER ca we accept thre TOD Chapman!

One cannot with any integrity say in one line Phillips TOD places a murder in the required time frame and only a few lines later say that we cannot use TOD by Phillips in tge Kelly case because it does not fit the required hours.

And of course I do not accept any of them.

What is unbecoming is the continual personal slights and attacks on those who do not agree with the views posted.


Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1298  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:55 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 2,653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Haha! Good one, Jon! I think we can safely say that IF Lechmere had been seen handling the body, knife in hand, we would not have this discussion today.

Whether Lechmere did a whole lot - knife in hand - BEFORE Paul arrived and could see anything at all is another matter. Going by how she bled afterwards, I think it is safe to say that either he or the dreaded .... (drumwhirl)...
PHANTOM KILLER did it.
Either that or Jack The Ripper did it
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1299  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:59 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 4,425
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
I see what your saying-but the only one we have to count on is the man in question. he could be lying how long he was there, when he left home etc.
Yes he could, but that does not mean he is.

The only suggestions for him arriving earlier are:

the time he left home, unfortunately impricisely recorded.

Paul's 3.45 which if we accept it means 3 seperate Police Officers lied under oath, what would be the reason for this?

The probaility is that Paul had the incorrect time, easy if your clock or watch were incorrect, or at least not syncronised which most were not.


Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1300  
Old 06-13-2018, 08:01 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 2,653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Yes, that is the only way we can perpetuate the Ripper myth, so I see the allure.

The really funny thing is when we look at other suspectologists. Some say that Lechmere disturbed Kosminski, some say he disturbed Druitt, Levy, Bury etc. It´s quite Pythonesque.

By the way, for you to agree with me, you really need to know what I think first. And if you do, then you also realize that agreeing with me is naming Lechmere the Ripper.

So agree away, Jon!
Making up drivel doesn’t help your case. This is pathetic, twisted, shameless shoehorning.
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.