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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

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  #1  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:12 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Default JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful.

Seems this could be a very big strike against JtR being the Torso killer(s).

Kelly's amputated breasts by circular incisions demonstrate that JtR tried to amputate body parts. Her right arm was slightly abducted. Also, there are knife knotches found more than once on their vertebrates. Many of JtR's victim's heads are almost severed from their body.

Even if we debate if he was amputating, there is evidence he tried to do something, stopped and didn't follow through, especially with Kelly.

It seems these points jeopardize both attempts to give JtR some medical training and to associate him with the Torso murderer, who seems to have no problem with severing body parts and amputating them. For JtR, this is a problem and time limits can't be a factor, given we know with Kelly, he had lots of uninterrupted time to carry out his fantasies to the full.
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Old 12-04-2018, 04:57 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Good points, although I should point out that "abducted" was being used in a technical sense. It simply meant that the arm was lying at a slight angle to the torso, as opposed to being flush with the side. If you place your arms at your sides and then lift them away, you are "abducting" them.
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Old 12-04-2018, 06:17 AM
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Very good points, Batman. Particularly, as regards the Kelly case, where he would have had time to perform the decapitation ritual etc.
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:18 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
Seems this could be a very big strike against JtR being the Torso killer(s).

Kelly's amputated breasts by circular incisions demonstrate that JtR tried to amputate body parts. Her right arm was slightly abducted. Also, there are knife knotches found more than once on their vertebrates. Many of JtR's victim's heads are almost severed from their body.

Even if we debate if he was amputating, there is evidence he tried to do something, stopped and didn't follow through, especially with Kelly.

It seems these points jeopardize both attempts to give JtR some medical training and to associate him with the Torso murderer, who seems to have no problem with severing body parts and amputating them. For JtR, this is a problem and time limits can't be a factor, given we know with Kelly, he had lots of uninterrupted time to carry out his fantasies to the full.
Hi Batman
Nahhh. . Torsoman seemed to be keeping parts-external as well as internal parts.

The ripper (if he was also torsoman)couldn't very well take away a human head or leg or arm away from one of his victims very easily.

so he just went with internal parts he wanted for the ripper kills.
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:24 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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I don´t think he wanted to decapitate the Ripper victims at all, least of all Kelly. I think it was of the utmost importance to him that her head was in place.

He cut savagely and all the way down to the bone. How could the vertebrae NOT be nicked, considering this?
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:38 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Hi Batman
Nahhh. . Torsoman seemed to be keeping parts-external as well as internal parts.
I don't see any evidence that the torso murderer(s) was especially interested in internal body parts.
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:50 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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I don´t think he wanted to decapitate the Ripper victims at all, least of all Kelly. I think it was of the utmost importance to him that her head was in place
A practised dismemberer could have cut off her head and left it behind, posed in an appropriately macabre tableau. Along with other severed limbs, if the fancy took him.
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:53 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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I don't see any evidence that the torso murderer(s) was especially interested in internal body parts.
all the torso victims had post mortem mutilation above and beyond what was needed for dismemberment-and internal organs were missing.
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:55 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
I don´t think he wanted to decapitate the Ripper victims at all, least of all Kelly. I think it was of the utmost importance to him that her head was in place.

He cut savagely and all the way down to the bone. How could the vertebrae NOT be nicked, considering this?
Hi fish

Quote:
I don´t think he wanted to decapitate the Ripper victims at all, least of all Kelly. I think it was of the utmost importance to him that her head was in place.

why pray tell?
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:56 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
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I don't see any evidence that the torso murderer(s) was especially interested in internal body parts.
That would equate how you don´t think that taking out a heart (or perhaps two) and taking out a uterus amounts to any special interest in taking out internal body parts, Gareth.

Then again, you have a few things going for you, and I actually agree to an extent - although we do have evidence that he took out internal body parts, it seems this could not have been an ultimate aim for him. If it was, then why did not all the victims suffer eviscerations?

My suggestion would be because organ excising was but one of many different things he could do, and that all of these things would be satisfactory to him. Compare, if you will, how Eddowes and Kelly had their faces cut (no organ excising there) and how flesh was cut away from the thighs of Kelly (no organ excising there), how Eddowes had her nose cut off (no organ excising there) and so on.

It was not only about organ excising for the torso killer - but organ excising was part of his agenda.

Similarly, organ excising was part of the Rippers agenda too - but it was NOT all he did to his victims.

I just watched a Youtube video with the Swedish criminologist Leif G W Persson commenting on the Ripper murders. He said that the kind of murders he perpetrated, with organ excising and very extensive cutting, is something that is so rare that there are not many cases around in the criminological history of the world.
Strange then, is it not, that one of the very, very few examples should have coexisted with the Ripper, same city, same time...?
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