JTR a Pranzini Copycat?

[David Orsam]

But not in 1889, right? After returning to the US in 1888, he would not have visited England again.

I have no idea.

[Fisherman]

I have no idea.

Tumblety is not my cup of tea, but I think I have read that he kept away from England for the remainder of his life after the Ripper scare.

Gonna have to check that out, though. Thanks for your contribution!

[Sam Flynn]

Sam Flynn: OK, Fish, but I glazed over after your opening sentence!

That´s fine. You run the risk that I sometimes have something important to say, but that´s your choice.

I don't think I had much choice, Fish, given that the very first line of the post in question started off by nit-picking me: "You spoke of concealing murders - as opposed to concealing the identities of the victims, Gareth." That sort of thing is rather annoying - doubly so, given that I'd already clarified what I meant in two posts.

Perhaps you could put your important points at the start of your posts, and the nit-picky stuff at the end? That way, if I do glaze over, at least it will be for a constructive reason

[Fisherman]

Here we go, David:

Decatur Saturday Herald
Decatur, Illinois, U.S.A.
26 June 1889

Excused Himself for his Absence
New York, June 25.
Francis Tumblety, the eccentric physician, who was indicted for assaulting George Davis on June 4, and who failed to appear when the case was called yesterday, walked into court today and excused himself for his absence. He pleaded not guilty, and was remanded.

June 4, 1889, was when the first part of Elizabeth Jackson was plucked out of the Thames. Ergo, Tumblety was arguably not the man who cut away her abdominal wall in flaps and floated them down the Thames; she had then been dead for perhaps two days only.

[Fisherman]

I don't think I had much choice, Fish, given that the very first line of the post in question started off by nit-picking me: "You spoke of concealing murders - as opposed to concealing the identities of the victims, Gareth." That sort of thing is rather annoying - doubly so, given that I'd already clarified what I meant in two posts.

Perhaps you could put your important points at the start of your posts, and the nit-picky stuff at the end? That way, if I do glaze over, at least it will be for a constructive reason

I was explaining why I was of the meaning that you had told me that dismembering murders were all about concealing the murders: because you wrote that dismembering murders were about concealing the murders.

I know that you explained that this was not what you actually meant, I acknowledged this and I thought we were both fine. But now you think the blame lies on me for not structuring my posts to your liking...?

Can we please let this go? And focus on the much more interesting bits instead of on petty quibbles? I am perfectly willing to take any blame if we can get to that point!

[Sam Flynn]

Can we please let this go?

Good-oh.

[SuspectZero]

Here you go:
http://www.searchingfortruthwithabro...cal_Museum.pdf

Hi Mike,
This is really fascinating information and a very intriguing line of research. Thank you for sharing. I couldn't help but be reminded of the eerie similarities between the Tumbelty marriage story and that of the Francis Craig marriage story.

[Fisherman]

Good-oh.

Great, Gareth - thank you!

Any more thoughts on the abdominal flaps/Anatomical Venuses/correlation of the ripper and the torso man...? I think we are looking at a major breakthrough, a total gamechanger. You?

[mklhawley]

Wow! I've been off the threads for a day and so much has been posted! David's right, Tumblety was in England periodically in the early to mid 1870s but he did not leave the US once he returned on December 2, 1888.

I have more with Tumblety and anatomical collections, but I'm intrigued where Fisherman's going, so I'm just listening now!

Sincerely,
Mike

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike,
This is really fascinating information and a very intriguing line of research. Thank you for sharing. I couldn't help but be reminded of the eerie similarities between the Tumbelty marriage story and that of the Francis Craig marriage story.

Hi SuspectZero,

I don't know about the Francis Craig marriage story, so I'll check it out. Every time Tumblety used the marriage story was to shield his sexual orientation, in Dunham's story (and there's more to that story), telling his landlady why he sneaked off at night, and his death certificate. Recall, he was in the St John hospital for a month before dying. The hospital personnel were under the impression his name was Frank Townsend (The only other time he used this particular alias was when he sneaked out of England in November 1888), so he himself was likely the person who gave the hospital officials the info on his death record.

Sincerely,
Mike

[Fisherman]

I'm intrigued where Fisherman's going, so I'm just listening now!

Sincerely,
Mike

I´m actually going for dinner at a family friends place, so I´ll be making no further contributions to the thread until tomorrow. I´m looking forward to see what has been added by then!

[SuspectZero]

Hi SuspectZero,

I don't know about the Francis Craig marriage story, so I'll check it out. Every time Tumblety used the marriage story was to shield his sexual orientation, in Dunham's story (and there's more to that story), telling his landlady why he sneaked off at night, and his death certificate. Recall, he was in the St John hospital for a month before dying. The hospital personnel were under the impression his name was Frank Townsend (The only other time he used this particular alias was when he sneaked out of England in November 1888), so he himself was likely the person who gave the hospital officials the info on his death record.

Sincerely,
Mike

Hi Mike-
You can find a quick synopsis here:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8993

The Tumblety story feels very much like this one in regards to a motive for the murders.

[David Orsam]

Here we go, David:

Decatur Saturday Herald
Decatur, Illinois, U.S.A.
26 June 1889

Excused Himself for his Absence
New York, June 25.
Francis Tumblety, the eccentric physician, who was indicted for assaulting George Davis on June 4, and who failed to appear when the case was called yesterday, walked into court today and excused himself for his absence. He pleaded not guilty, and was remanded.

June 4, 1889, was when the first part of Elizabeth Jackson was plucked out of the Thames. Ergo, Tumblety was arguably not the man who cut away her abdominal wall in flaps and floated them down the Thames; she had then been dead for perhaps two days only.

I don't know why that post is addressed to me. I wasn't asking anything about Tumblety, nor do I care where he was in June 1889.

[Sam Flynn]

Any more thoughts on the abdominal flaps/Anatomical Venuses/correlation of the ripper and the torso man...? I think we are looking at a major breakthrough, a total gamechanger. You?

I don't see a correlation with torso-man, I'm afraid. Like I said, dismemberment was, and is, a common feature of many murders.

However, I can see how someone obsessed with these sorts of anatomical dummies might have made any associated fantasies a reality by committing the JTR murders, specifically the eviscerating ones. As has been noted, a similar phenomenon may have fuelled the pathology of the "other" Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe.

In a more subtle sense, Dennis Nilsen is said to have been so affected by his grandfather's supine, pale corpse that it fed his later fetish for dusting his victims with talcum-powder before laying out their corpses. Incidentally, Nilsen dismembered and eviscerated his victims, but purely to dispose of the evidence. No "Ripper" he, but a vague resemblance to a torso-killer, perhaps.

Both men had experienced strong emotional reactions to morbid visual stimuli, and it's possible that those memories played a part in the realisation of equally morbid their fantasies in later life. If a similar phenomenon had featured in the life of Jack the Ripper, I shouldn't be at all surprised.

[mklhawley]

Hi Gareth,

You have to admit how similar the Anatomical Venus is with the murder site of Kelly, both in evisceration and display. It's creepy.

Sincerely,

Mike