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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

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  #161  
Old 01-14-2019, 12:22 PM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Hi Abby. Considering that 3 of the 4 so-called 'torso' victims were unidentified, isn't it playing it a bit fast-and-loose to suggest the 'victimology' was the same as in the 'Ripper' murders? We don't in fact know that, do we? One of the victim's hands were described as rather soft and gentile; I doubt that would have been the case with Tabram, Nichols, Eddowes, etc. All the best.
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  #162  
Old 01-14-2019, 02:26 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
Hi Abby. Considering that 3 of the 4 so-called 'torso' victims were unidentified, isn't it playing it a bit fast-and-loose to suggest the 'victimology' was the same as in the 'Ripper' murders? We don't in fact know that, do we? One of the victim's hands were described as rather soft and gentile; I doubt that would have been the case with Tabram, Nichols, Eddowes, etc. All the best.
HI RJ
no not for sure. But the one torso victim that was IDed, Elizabeth Jackson was an unfortunate, and I would imagine the others were also, which might also be another indicator of them being prostitutes--not IDed--- because no one cared enough about them, sadly.
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  #163  
Old 01-14-2019, 03:52 PM
Kattrup Kattrup is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
vertical gashes to the abdomen for starters
Hi Abby, sorry for the late reply.

"Vertical gashes" were only "above and beyond" dismemberment, if you think dismemberment is always six pieces: head, two arms, two legs, trunk.

Since the torso cases were dismembered in another manner, it is not clear that the cuts to open the abdomen were unnecessary for dismemberment.

As Sam Flynn has pointed out, when dividing the trunk in several pieces, it might be a good idea to somehow deal with the internal organs etc. which might otherwise flop around, drop out, make a mess, be a nuissance or whatever. When one considers that three of the four torso cases were divided directly above the pelvis, is it not fairly obvious that the dismemberer would first remove the intestines?

But what about the fourth case - Pinchin? Well, luckily we have available the thoughts of an experienced, senior investigative officer, who personally inspected the torso: James Monro. He stated: "The whole of the wound looks as if the murderer had intended to make a cut preparatory to removing the intestines in the process of dismemberment, & had then changed his mind."

The point is not that Monro must have been correct. It's possible he was mistaken.
The point is that he considered it completely unsurprising that a dismemberer would first remove the intestines in the process of dismemberment. Meaning that all the abdominal gashes that you consider "above and beyond" dismemberment are not necessarily so.

The theory that the Torso Killer was a post-mortem mutilator eviscerator who just for jollies did more than dismember is just that - a theory. It is not proven, and there seems to be very little to support it. It is entirely possible that whoever disposed of the Torso victims did so with no other thought or impulse than to dispose of them, and that the damage done to the bodies was merely a part of cutting them into convenient pieces.
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  #164  
Old 01-14-2019, 04:02 PM
Kattrup Kattrup is offline
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Have I ever said that opening the abdomen is unnecessary if you want to take out inner organs? I hope not - it would leave a job only a magician could handle.
Hi Fisherman, sorry for the late reply.

No, Abby Normal and I were discussing the wounds "above and beyond" dismemberment.

Like you, Abby Normal seemed to consider opening the abdomen unncessary for dismemberment. It is not - it is perhaps only unncessary for what you'd consider a normal dismemberment in six pieces, where the trunk stays intact.

Since the Torso Killer did things differently, it might very well have been necessary for him to open the abdomen.

See my reply above to Abby Normal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
What I have said is that there is no need to take away the abdominal wall to get at the organs - all of them. A useful exercise is to study the Ed Gingrich case if you want to see what I am getting at.

Taking the abdominal wall away from a victim is always going to be above and beyond the necessary. Taking the heart and lungs out from a torso section is much the same - it is above and beyond what is requiered. Taking the uterus out - same thing. Taking a foetus out from the uterus - same thing. Cutting a face away from a victim - same thing.

These are all matters that - instead of facilitating the job - makes things harder and more timeconsuming.
I disagree, since the divisions of the bodies might have necessitated removing various organs, so they might in fact have facilitated the job.

Last edited by Kattrup : 01-14-2019 at 04:12 PM.
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  #165  
Old 01-14-2019, 04:47 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kattrup View Post
Hi Abby, sorry for the late reply.

"Vertical gashes" were only "above and beyond" dismemberment, if you think dismemberment is always six pieces: head, two arms, two legs, trunk.

Since the torso cases were dismembered in another manner, it is not clear that the cuts to open the abdomen were unnecessary for dismemberment.

As Sam Flynn has pointed out, when dividing the trunk in several pieces, it might be a good idea to somehow deal with the internal organs etc. which might otherwise flop around, drop out, make a mess, be a nuissance or whatever. When one considers that three of the four torso cases were divided directly above the pelvis, is it not fairly obvious that the dismemberer would first remove the intestines?

But what about the fourth case - Pinchin? Well, luckily we have available the thoughts of an experienced, senior investigative officer, who personally inspected the torso: James Monro. He stated: "The whole of the wound looks as if the murderer had intended to make a cut preparatory to removing the intestines in the process of dismemberment, & had then changed his mind."

The point is not that Monro must have been correct. It's possible he was mistaken.
The point is that he considered it completely unsurprising that a dismemberer would first remove the intestines in the process of dismemberment. Meaning that all the abdominal gashes that you consider "above and beyond" dismemberment are not necessarily so.

The theory that the Torso Killer was a post-mortem mutilator eviscerator who just for jollies did more than dismember is just that - a theory. It is not proven, and there seems to be very little to support it. It is entirely possible that whoever disposed of the Torso victims did so with no other thought or impulse than to dispose of them, and that the damage done to the bodies was merely a part of cutting them into convenient pieces.
Hi kattrup
Thanks! Yes iaccepted the possibility of that to sams response of the same point you make.

I dont neccessarily agree, especially when you consider victims having heart and lungs removed, face removed, etc.However, i see the point.

And im glad you also bring up disposal, because to me it looks like it was much more than just trying to dispose. Parts in the river, on the bank, in shelley estate yard, basement of the new scotland yard, in pinchin street. No, to me there is special significance to the killer in the way he dumped, which is why i also think there was more to the way he cut up. But thats just me.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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