Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman): Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?. - by Batman 24 minutes ago.
Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman): Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?. - by Batman 39 minutes ago.
Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman): Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?. - by Fisherman 40 minutes ago.
Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman): Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?. - by John G 52 minutes ago.
Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman): Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?. - by John G 59 minutes ago.
Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman): Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?. - by Batman 1 hour and 9 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman): Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?. - (48 posts)
Non-Fiction: the victims werent prostitutes - (16 posts)
Doctors and Coroners: Sedgewick Saunders ....... why did he say the things he said ? - (13 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Antisemitism as a diversionary tactic - (11 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (4 posts)
General Discussion: Martin Fido discovery 2018 - (4 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Witnesses

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old 06-16-2018, 11:56 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,123
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Thankyou Debs.

Have you happened to see any papers on the topic (like you mention above) explaining how they understood this effect to work in 1888?
I don't see anything at present.
Jon, this is the chapter on Rigor from Tidy's 1882 text book that I mentioned. It describes a chemical reaction involved in the onset of Rigor and references Kuhne's discovery of Myosin, but as I said earlier, I am not sure if they have it totally correct or not because I do not know what the chemical process is myself. I do notice though that the opening line of one paragraph describing the process involved says: " Furthermore, it is independent of temperature.."

https://archive.org/stream/legalmedi...signs+of+death

Meymott tidy is an interesting character and was the City of London public health public analyst before Sedgewick Saunders took over and also worked at the London Hospital. He died quite young in 1892 so his work is all contemporary to the Whitechapel cases. He has a particularly interesting chapter about the treatment of crime scenes and suggests that sketches of crime scenes should be taken and be detailed and labelled with anything that might have a bearing on the crime, and that a description of a victim's clothing should be carefully described, including any weapon marks on them. I have often mentioned in the past that I wondered if Tidy's ideas had any influence on the way the forensic detail in Catherine Eddowes' murder was dealt with in the City.

https://archive.org/stream/legalmedi...p/search/crime
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

Last edited by Debra A : 06-17-2018 at 12:07 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-17-2018, 01:43 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,084
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post

Meymott tidy is an interesting character and was the City of London public health public analyst before Sedgewick Saunders took over and also worked at the London Hospital. He died quite young in 1892 so his work is all contemporary to the Whitechapel cases. He has a particularly interesting chapter about the treatment of crime scenes and suggests that sketches of crime scenes should be taken and be detailed and labelled with anything that might have a bearing on the crime, and that a description of a victim's clothing should be carefully described, including any weapon marks on them. I have often mentioned in the past that I wondered if Tidy's ideas had any influence on the way the forensic detail in Catherine Eddowes' murder was dealt with in the City.
Hi Debs

I think you could be right on this issue. Eddowes clothing was described and documented with cuts at varying angles, and of varying sizes, all around the waist and abdominal area, with connecting blood stains, which to me might indicate she was stabbed several times through the outer clothing, and the knife drawn down or across. However it seems there are several here who dont subscribe to that view, but have failed to come up with plausible alternatives for these specific cuts, and the connecting blood stains.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-17-2018, 02:43 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,123
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Hi Debs

I think you could be right on this issue. Eddowes clothing was described and documented with cuts at varying angles, and of varying sizes, all around the waist and abdominal area, with connecting blood stains, which to me might indicate she was stabbed several times through the outer clothing, and the knife drawn down or across. However it seems there are several here who dont subscribe to that view, but have failed to come up with plausible alternatives for these specific cuts, and the connecting blood stains.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Yes, that's what made me think he might have had an influence somehow, Trevor. Also he describes making sketches of the original position a body was found in and noting the position of surrounding objects, furniture etc. Outdoors this would probably translate to noting landmarks? Similar to the sketches done of Eddowes.
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

I am not DJA. He's called Dave.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06-17-2018, 04:31 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 262
Default

[quote=packers stem;450471]This is without a doubt the lamest excuse for dismissing the most reliable of witnesses to fit into a theory .

Why is she the most reliable of witnesses? Her story isn't corroborated by anyone. Lawende's is by the two gentlemen he was with. Fanny Mortimer's is by Leon Goldstein etc Nobody saw Maxwell and Kelly talking. I know that doesn't mean she was lying but it isn't corroborated either.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-17-2018, 05:48 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
Jon, this is the chapter on Rigor from Tidy's 1882 text book that I mentioned.
Wonderful find Debs, much appreciated.
This all helps to fill in what Phillips & Bond, etc., had to consider in their medical determinations which are not reflected in surviving notes.

Quote:
He has a particularly interesting chapter about the treatment of crime scenes and suggests that sketches of crime scenes should be taken and be detailed and labelled with anything that might have a bearing on the crime, and that a description of a victim's clothing should be carefully described, including any weapon marks on them. I have often mentioned in the past that I wondered if Tidy's ideas had any influence on the way the forensic detail in Catherine Eddowes' murder was dealt with in the City.

https://archive.org/stream/legalmedi...p/search/crime
It is an interesting fact that the City surgeon seems to have approached the Eddowes murder with more attention to detail than the surviving records of the Met. murders tend to indicate on their part.
We may note that no-one of Foster's caliber was introduced at the various inquests in the four Met. cases.

Many thanks Debs.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-17-2018, 06:16 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 955
Default

[quote=Darryl Kenyon;450509]
Quote:
Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
This is without a doubt the lamest excuse for dismissing the most reliable of witnesses to fit into a theory .

Why is she the most reliable of witnesses? Her story isn't corroborated by anyone. Lawende's is by the two gentlemen he was with. Fanny Mortimer's is by Leon Goldstein etc Nobody saw Maxwell and Kelly talking. I know that doesn't mean she was lying but it isn't corroborated either.
Maxwell's visit to get milk was corroborated by the shop.
Let's start at the beginning and compare the two sightings .
Maxwell was a neighbour , she was also well aware that Kelly came from Limerick when questioned on the day .
Lawende did not know the couple he saw .
Maxwell's sighting was in daylight and a conversation took place .
Lawende's sighting was in utter darkness as we know there was no lamp at that and of the passage .... no conversation
Lawende and friends had little reason to take note of the couple .
Maxwell's attention would have been alerted by Mary throwing up in the street .
Maurice Lewis press statements do supply independent corroboration that Kelly was alive and well as does the unnamed woman mentioned in the times .
Lawende's sighting is rather worthless other than that he witnessed a couple standing in the dark .....
could have been absolutely anybody .
Maxwell , saw and chatted with a neighbour and despite pressure she was under , was unmoved in her testimony .There are no grounds for suggesting she lied and if abberline suspected so he should have made her identify the body .... had it been possible
__________________
You can lead a horse to water.....
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-17-2018, 06:39 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,757
Default

Maxwell's 'Kelly' threw up in the street about 8:30?, the body had partly digested fish & potato in the stomach after 10:45.
Who is serving a supper that early in the morning?
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 06-17-2018, 06:57 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 955
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Maxwell's 'Kelly' threw up in the street about 8:30?, the body had partly digested fish & potato in the stomach after 10:45.
Who is serving a supper that early in the morning?
Quite ......
The Bond report described an evening meal yet Kelly was alive and well .
So if that's so what are your options ?
__________________
You can lead a horse to water.....
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 06-17-2018, 08:10 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 262
Default

[quote=packers stem;450515]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post

Maxwell's visit to get milk was corroborated by the shop.
Let's start at the beginning and compare the two sightings .
Maxwell was a neighbour , she was also well aware that Kelly came from Limerick when questioned on the day .
Lawende did not know the couple he saw .
Maxwell's sighting was in daylight and a conversation took place .
Lawende's sighting was in utter darkness as we know there was no lamp at that and of the passage .... no conversation
Lawende and friends had little reason to take note of the couple .
Maxwell's attention would have been alerted by Mary throwing up in the street .
Maurice Lewis press statements do supply independent corroboration that Kelly was alive and well as does the unnamed woman mentioned in the times .
Lawende's sighting is rather worthless other than that he witnessed a couple standing in the dark .....
could have been absolutely anybody .
Maxwell , saw and chatted with a neighbour and despite pressure she was under , was unmoved in her testimony .There are no grounds for suggesting she lied and if abberline suspected so he should have made her identify the body .... had it been possible
Did i say Lawende had a good view of JTR? What I said was his evidence can be corroborated. As for going to the shop to buy some milk, I went to the paper shop around the corner this morning and saw Elvis across the road. Faz who served and knows me can corroborate I went to the shop but can he corroborate that I saw Elvis? OED Corroborate - confirm or give support to (a statement, theory, or finding).
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 06-17-2018, 08:13 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,757
Default

People like Kelly pretty well lived from hand to mouth. So I wouldn't think it viable to suggest she bought the food earlier the night before, and kept half of it for breakfast. But then, who eats a meal soon after throwing up?
Typically, food is the last thing on your mind after a good heave-up - I recall my pub-crawl days when a lad.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.