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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Other Mysteries > A6 Murders

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  #11  
Old 05-20-2014, 04:05 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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G'day Sherlock Houses

Welcome to casebook, enjoy.

I love the name by the way.
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There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.
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  #12  
Old 05-20-2014, 04:44 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Thinking about Hanratty, a couple of things occur to me.

It has been said that his school declared him uneducatable when he was 11 and then he had a nasty head injury when 15, wonder what if any contribution this had.

More importantly, to my mind, that change of alibi half way through the case must have caused the Jury real doubts, "I was in Liverpool at the time of the murder.... oh no wasn't I was in Wales." Not a great look.
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  #13  
Old 05-20-2014, 04:55 PM
Sherlock Houses Sherlock Houses is offline
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.....In the days following the murder, before Alphon became their chief suspect, the police must have questioned several possible suspects.
On Sept 6th/7th 1961, for example, a mystery man was questioned for a lengthy 16 hours before being released. Mr Matthews, having had access to a large number of police files during his long investigation, would probably have learned who this man was. Who knows, perhap this particular suspect is the one Mr Matthews is hinting at.

Last edited by Sherlock Houses : 05-20-2014 at 05:00 PM. Reason: added a word
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  #14  
Old 05-21-2014, 02:24 AM
Derrick Derrick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
.....In the days following the murder, before Alphon became their chief suspect, the police must have questioned several possible suspects.
On Sept 6th/7th 1961, for example, a mystery man was questioned for a lengthy 16 hours before being released. Mr Matthews, having had access to a large number of police files during his long investigation, would probably have learned who this man was. Who knows, perhap this particular suspect is the one Mr Matthews is hinting at.
Hi Sherlock (sounds good saying that)
That was Alphon...see paragraph 37 of the appeal judgement: it reads thus;
Quote:
Given the evidence of what was found at the Vienna Hotel, on or about the 22 September 1961, the police made a public appeal for Peter Alphon to contact them. As a result, he voluntarily presented himself to the police on 23 September; he had already been interviewed on 27 August and 7 September and he was interviewed again. He was then put on two identity parades. The first was on the 23 September (held at Cannon Row Police Station) when Edward Blackhall, James Trower and Harold Hirons (who was a garage attendant who served a light coloured Morris Minor with 2 gallons of petrol at about midnight on the night in question) attended. John Skillett was away and did not attend. Valerie Storie attended the second parade on 24 September 1961 at Guy’s Hospital. No witness connected with the murder picked out Mr Alphon. Valerie Storie picked out a man who was in fact a volunteer; there is an issue about what was said of his description (Ground 4).
HTH
Del
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  #15  
Old 05-21-2014, 02:30 AM
GUT GUT is offline
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G'day Derrick

Can you please point me in the direction of the full appeal judgement I've only seen excerpts?
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  #16  
Old 05-21-2014, 03:38 AM
Sherlock Houses Sherlock Houses is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick View Post
Hi Sherlock (sounds good saying that)
That was Alphon...see paragraph 37 of the appeal judgement: it reads thus;
HTH
Del
Thank you Del for clarifying this for me. I've often wondered if this mystery suspect could have been Alphon. Upon re-reading Bob Woffinden's fine book on the A6 murder he states the following about this Sept 7th incident (page 53).........."Although the London evening papers, which were always on sale from mid-morning, were creating the impression that it was all over, nothing more was heard from this suspect."

It would seem from reading this that Woffinden, as late as 1999, was unaware that this Sept 7th suspect was Alphon.

Is it possible that more than one suspect was interviewed that particular day ?

.
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  #17  
Old 05-21-2014, 07:35 AM
Derrick Derrick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GUT View Post
G'day Derrick

Can you please point me in the direction of the full appeal judgement I've only seen excerpts?
Hi Gut
Do I detect a slight Aussie twang in your salutation eh?

Here is a link:
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/1141.html

HTH
Del
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  #18  
Old 05-21-2014, 08:22 AM
Derrick Derrick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
Thank you Del for clarifying this for me. I've often wondered if this mystery suspect could have been Alphon. Upon re-reading Bob Woffinden's fine book on the A6 murder he states the following about this Sept 7th incident (page 53).........."Although the London evening papers, which were always on sale from mid-morning, were creating the impression that it was all over, nothing more was heard from this suspect."

It would seem from reading this that Woffinden, as late as 1999, was unaware that this Sept 7th suspect was Alphon.

Is it possible that more than one suspect was interviewed that particular day ?

.
Hi Sherlock
From what I have read from the press articles in the period from the murder until Alphon walked into Scotland Yard on the night of the 22nd September the police interviewed and released God only knows how many people.

In fact, the day after the identikit pictures were issued some 400 people contacted the police saying that they had seen the man!

The discovery of the cartridge cases at the Vienna on the 11th September was never reported at the time. The police were obviously keeping that one very close to their chest. But what is not in doubt is that in the 10 days that followed Acott had decided that Alphon was their man and, unusually, named him as the man they wanted to talk to.

So when Alphon was not picked out by anyone, the police, without any forensic evidence to go by, just went back to the Vienna Hotel.

Now, call me old-fashioned, but if Hanratty really was the A6 Murderer what are the chances of stumbling across him completely by accident only because he had stayed at the same doss house as the police's previous, and only, suspect the night before him? Mind-boggling.

As for Woffinden's lack of knowledge on this...no idea.

Del
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  #19  
Old 05-21-2014, 09:07 AM
Victor Victor is offline
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Hi Del,

Which one is it? They are mutually exclusive...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick View Post
The discovery of the cartridge cases at the Vienna on the 11th September was never reported at the time. The police were obviously keeping that one very close to their chest. But what is not in doubt is that in the 10 days that followed Acott had decided that Alphon was their man and, unusually, named him as the man they wanted to talk to.

So when Alphon was not picked out by anyone, the police, without any forensic evidence to go by, just went back to the Vienna Hotel.
No forensic evidence or cartridge cases at the Vienna?

KR,
Vic.
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  #20  
Old 05-21-2014, 10:14 AM
Derrick Derrick is offline
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Quote:
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Hi Del,

Which one is it? They are mutually exclusive...

No forensic evidence or cartridge cases at the Vienna?

KR,
Vic.
I don't know, what do you think?

Why did the cases in room 24 lead the police to Alphon and not originally J Ryan. Again...what do you think?

Besides, they was never any other forensic evidence viz the car!

Last edited by Derrick : 05-21-2014 at 10:33 AM.
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