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Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Busy Beaver 2 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Fisherman 8 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Abby Normal 8 minutes ago.
Torso Killings: JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful. - by Fisherman 13 minutes ago.
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  #2651  
Old 04-06-2018, 06:41 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Good!

Hereīs my question:

Dr Biggs! Are you of the opinion that dismemberment murder cases led on by a deeply rooted psychological urge within the killer to cut into a body are likely to produce other results than dismemberment cases where the sole reason for the dismemberment is a wish to conceal the identity of the victim or facilitate the disposal of the remains?
I think that question would be better answer by a criminal psychologist and not a forensic pathologist like Dr Biggs who deals with medical issues

I have set out below yet again some extracts from Dr Biggs assesemnt and evaluation of the facts surrounding these torsos

"Despite there being apparently a lot of information about these torsos, there is actually little pathological information to determine how they died (or when) so I can’t shed any light on that side of things, I’m afraid. Dismemberment isn’t that uncommon, and when it is seen it is usually (but not always!) the result of an attempt to conceal a homicide. Abortionists tended not to worry so much about concealing the fact that death occurred, but just made themselves scarce, so they couldn’t be linked to the woman after she was found (intact). However, I guess that if they carried out the abortions within their own property and the victims died, then I can understand the need to dispose of the body by dismemberment.

Dr Biggs was also asked a question re the comparisons between Kelly and Jackson. two who you link to the same killer,

Q. You have perused the post mortem reports from both the Kelly Murder and Elizabeth Jackson whose body is believed to have been one of the Thames Torsos. In your professional opinion are there any comparisons, which you can see which might indicate that they were killed and mutilated by the same person? In particular the doctors reports which mention flaps of skin being removed in both cases.

A. I don't think the removal of 'flaps' of tissue can be taken as evidence of a 'signature' of the killer. By signature, I am including both the intentional (i.e. 'calling card') and unintentional (habit, MO) interpretations of the word. Essentially, these two individuals could have been killed by the same person, or by different individuals. There is no way of telling one scenario from the other based purely on the pattern of body dismemberment.

"A person who is faced with a body to dispose of will often attempt to 'chop it up', either to make it easier to hide, easier to transport or easier to 'get rid of' in some way. What is quite striking is that even individuals with no prior knowledge will often end up doing a job that will look remarkably similar (in appearance afterwards) to that of another, completely unrelated case. It is not the presence of a common killer that is responsible for the similarities between cases, but the fact that bodies tend to have fairly obvious 'joins' to go for when attempting to reduce the size / bulk of a body.

"Put simply, the pattern of removing the head and limbs from the torso +/- splitting the torso in half seems to be fairly 'normal' in cases of dismemberment. The handful of dismemberment cases that I have personally dealt with in my short career so far have all ended up looking fairly similar, but I would never have tried to claim that this represented some sort of common link between cases"

[/i][/b]

I hope reading this again will bring you to your senses and make you abandon this misguided belife that all the torsos were the work of a killer and that killer murdered the Whitechapel women.

There really is no more to say on the topic. Your own medical opinions, you base you theory on clearly do not stand up to scrutiny and are not in line with 21st Century medical experts opinions. So who do we believe ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #2652  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:06 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
I think that question would be better answer by a criminal psychologist and not a forensic pathologist like Dr Biggs who deals with medical issues

I have set out below yet again some extracts from Dr Biggs assesemnt and evaluation of the facts surrounding these torsos

"Despite there being apparently a lot of information about these torsos, there is actually little pathological information to determine how they died (or when) so I can’t shed any light on that side of things, I’m afraid. Dismemberment isn’t that uncommon, and when it is seen it is usually (but not always!) the result of an attempt to conceal a homicide. Abortionists tended not to worry so much about concealing the fact that death occurred, but just made themselves scarce, so they couldn’t be linked to the woman after she was found (intact). However, I guess that if they carried out the abortions within their own property and the victims died, then I can understand the need to dispose of the body by dismemberment.

Dr Biggs was also asked a question re the comparisons between Kelly and Jackson. two who you link to the same killer,

Q. You have perused the post mortem reports from both the Kelly Murder and Elizabeth Jackson whose body is believed to have been one of the Thames Torsos. In your professional opinion are there any comparisons, which you can see which might indicate that they were killed and mutilated by the same person? In particular the doctors reports which mention flaps of skin being removed in both cases.

A. I don't think the removal of 'flaps' of tissue can be taken as evidence of a 'signature' of the killer. By signature, I am including both the intentional (i.e. 'calling card') and unintentional (habit, MO) interpretations of the word. Essentially, these two individuals could have been killed by the same person, or by different individuals. There is no way of telling one scenario from the other based purely on the pattern of body dismemberment.

"A person who is faced with a body to dispose of will often attempt to 'chop it up', either to make it easier to hide, easier to transport or easier to 'get rid of' in some way. What is quite striking is that even individuals with no prior knowledge will often end up doing a job that will look remarkably similar (in appearance afterwards) to that of another, completely unrelated case. It is not the presence of a common killer that is responsible for the similarities between cases, but the fact that bodies tend to have fairly obvious 'joins' to go for when attempting to reduce the size / bulk of a body.

"Put simply, the pattern of removing the head and limbs from the torso +/- splitting the torso in half seems to be fairly 'normal' in cases of dismemberment. The handful of dismemberment cases that I have personally dealt with in my short career so far have all ended up looking fairly similar, but I would never have tried to claim that this represented some sort of common link between cases"

[/i][/b]

I hope reading this again will bring you to your senses and make you abandon this misguided belife that all the torsos were the work of a killer and that killer murdered the Whitechapel women.

There really is no more to say on the topic. Your own medical opinions, you base you theory on clearly do not stand up to scrutiny and are not in line with 21st Century medical experts opinions. So who do we believe ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
A forensic pathologist would be eminently suited to answer the question, Trevor, so ask away, please. The worst thing that can happen is that he says he has no idea.
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  #2653  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:09 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
My Dear Christer,

The arguments you make, while interesting, do not it appears convince all. And it appears that you find such annoying or frustrating..
I and others have listed in detail the reasons why we do not feel these issues are significant, you do not accept those arguments, that's fine.

We all look at the same evidence and then come to different conclusions.

Steve
... yes, and then you get all moralistic when I tell you itīs farcical. Everybody KNOWS that the time factor only comes into play if there are similarities between deeds. Everybody. Letīs not pretend otherwise.
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  #2654  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:17 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
... yes, and then you get all moralistic when I tell you itīs farcical. Everybody KNOWS that the time factor only comes into play if there are similarities between deeds. Everybody. Letīs not pretend otherwise.
Again I am not sure what your issue is?

I said if I remember that the timing issue raised the possability of a link,.

However I said so many times I do not think the other similarities are significant at all.


Hence I see no significant link between the Torso and Whitechapel deaths.

Why do you have an issue with that?

However the post you replied to made no reference to dates at all!






Steve

Last edited by Elamarna : 04-06-2018 at 07:26 AM.
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  #2655  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:24 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Again I am not sure what your issue is?

I said if I remember that the timing issue raised the possability of a link,.

However I said so many times I do not think the other similarities are significant at all.

Hence I see no significant link between the Torso and Whitechapel deaths.

Why do you have an issue with that?

Steve
I have an issue with those who think that the time issue is the primary link for a connection. If you do not think that, but only seemed to do so, then I have no issue with it whatsoever.
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  #2656  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:37 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
I have an issue with those who think that the time issue is the primary link for a connection. If you do not think that, but only seemed to do so, then I have no issue with it whatsoever.
Christer

No I Don't think it is the primary link, I don't work on single issues, I take an holistic approach and so each possible link is considered and compared in relation to each other.

The timing gives a possible link, purely on that issue, date and time, however I do not see any other possible link is significant enough to proceed and thus the timing/date is not significant either.

That's how I do analysis & research.


Steve
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  #2657  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:40 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
A forensic pathologist would be eminently suited to answer the question, Trevor, so ask away, please. The worst thing that can happen is that he says he has no idea.
You need to rephrase it, as in my opinion it makes no real sense.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #2658  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:51 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Christer

No I Don't think it is the primary link, I don't work on single issues, I take an holistic approach and so each possible link is considered and compared in relation to each other.

The timing gives a possible link, purely on that issue, date and time, however I do not see any other possible link is significant enough to proceed and thus the timing/date is not significant either.

That's how I do analysis & research.


Steve
Yes, itīs much like how the police does it:

-Evening, sarge! Anything going down on our streets nowadays?

-Nothing much, Sir, nothing much.

-Any murders? No?

-Now that you mention it, we have had a string of murders, yes.

-Ugh! Nasty business, murders! I remember that Southcliff chap - terrible.

- Sutcliffe, Sir.

-Yes, Sutcliffe. Him. Hit people over the heads with a hammer and stabbed them with a screwdriver, he did!

-Yes, it was hell connecting the cases. We didnīt know what to think. We looked for similarities since the deeds were so close in time, but it turned up nothing.

-Clever bastard. Different approach all the time.

-Mmm.

-But these new killings, they are surely not the work of Southcliff, are they?

-Sutcliffe, Sir. Nah, heīs in prison, he is.

-Good, good.

-But the murders are much the same like his were, we canīt make heads or tails of them since they are all very different. They all have cut necks, opened up abdomens, the uterus taken away and the abdominal wall cut away in large sections, so thereīs no reason to believe that they are connected.

-I see. Jolly bad luck, sarge. But ears to the ground and all that. Maybe something will turn up.

-Thank you, Sir. Itīs a good thing that we are probably dealing with multiple single killers, anyway. I hate serialists. They are so damn hard to detect, and then when they confess, you are always flabbergasted. Turned out last week that the killings yesteryear were all the work of the same man.

-You mean the ones where the victims all had their buttocks sliced off, their noses painted blue and their hair set on fire? It was the same man? Well, Iīd never! I donīt envy you guys that work of yours. It canīt be easy!

-God knows itīs not. But what is this lying on the pavement? A woman with her neck cut, her abdomen opened up, her uterus taken and the abdominal wall cut away in large sections! How grisly!

-Good luck with cracking that one, sarge!


Last edited by Fisherman : 04-06-2018 at 07:55 AM.
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  #2659  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:54 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
You need to rephrase it, as in my opinion it makes no real sense.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
If it makes no sense to you, then maybe we should not be having this conversation at all.
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  #2660  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:05 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
Lots of possible reasons but the obvious one is mental deterioration
yup. or circumstances, or wanting to up the thrill factor
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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