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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Sickert, Walter

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  #31  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:32 AM
Monty Monty is offline
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Jeff,

Quote:
So if someone like Patricia Cornwall comes along and puts her money into paying for serious research then she should be applauded and thanked..not put down with personal insults. God knows there are few enough people willing to do so..
You seem to have forgotten the attacks upon us (and I use that word as reference to our community) by Patricia.

Yes, she should be applauded but that does not give her the right to insult MY chararcter and my interest in the case.

Nor does it give her the right to exclaim Walter Sickert as a 'sick bastard' and 'killer' when the reality is that she has not proven anything, and that includes letter writing, against the man.

Its deformation of chararcter on both counts. There was no need for it. It was simply done for the hype, yet Im the sad, sick one.

Monty
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  #32  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:46 AM
Chris Chris is offline
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Originally Posted by Pirate Jack View Post
The Cohen debate forinstance...I gather from martins pod-cast that no-one has ever checked the records of the Jewish rest home he used as an address..as this address was a temporary home for newly arrived immigrants it might very well tell us if Cohen was in the country at the time of the murders?
I think you must have missed my previous response on the Rippercast thread.

Martin Fido is mistaken about this. The earliest surviving admissions register of the Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter are from 1896. Those up to 1914 are available on an online database:
http://chrysalis.its.uct.ac.za/shelter/shelter.htm
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  #33  
Old 05-16-2008, 11:24 AM
Stewart P Evans Stewart P Evans is offline
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Originally Posted by Pirate Jack View Post
Actually while your correct that the infighting has always been there, its not actually as bad as it sounds..Ripperologists can be pretty cool more than that (and I include you in this) generous...
Money however does always rear its ugly head, there does seem to be some collective thought that someone somewhere is making money out of Jack The Ripper...I've just never come across them.
Perhaps that is why Patricia has really come in for such stick..I dont know.
What i do know is that any serious research (and I'm not talking about what TV people call research) takes patience, hardwork and lots of time. And that persons time takes money (because he has to pay the mortgage and feed himself.
So if someone like Patricia Cornwall comes along and puts her money into paying for serious research then she should be applauded and thanked..not put down with personal insults. God knows there are few enough people willing to do so..
There is tons of research that could be done....and everybody has the right to argue and debate there favored suspects because those suspects are all part of Stewart's (unwritten) history of Ripperology...as Stan Rosso pointed out in his pod-cast..thats what ripperology is about, arguing the toss on a very intricate piece of history...
However that is not the same as condoning personal attacks and we should be very careful not to do so..
Jeff
Thank you for the kind remarks, but I must make a few comments. I think that quite a few of Patricia Cornwell's problems arose from the fact that she came onto the 'Ripper scene' very late in the day and then proceeded to point out the flaws in previous work on the case and made the claim that she had actually solved it. Combine this with the copious factual errors in her book and her fantastical claims about the letters and, well...

The subject of 'personal attacks', whatever that may mean, is a subject that should be avoided by anyone not directly involved or who does not know the nature of this aspect. For 'personal attacks' in Ripperworld have been so described when only simple criticism or disagreement is involved. It is often difficult to honestly critique a writer's work without receiving accusations of personal attack, animosity or simple 'sour grapes.' It is the nature of the beast and cannot be avoided. Some authors have been downright dishonest and should expect all they receive in return. But egos and reputations are involved here so it is a contentious and volatile area.
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  #34  
Old 05-16-2008, 01:01 PM
Ally Ally is offline
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Quote:
For 'personal attacks' in Ripperworld have been so described when only simple criticism or disagreement is involved. It is often difficult to honestly critique a writer's work without receiving accusations of personal attack, animosity or simple 'sour grapes.' It is the nature of the beast and cannot be avoided. Some authors have been downright dishonest and should expect all they receive in return.
All that and a bag of chips.
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  #35  
Old 05-16-2008, 08:16 PM
Dan Norder Dan Norder is offline
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Originally Posted by Pirate Jack View Post
She has put considerable amounts of money into serious research...
Yes, as I said, she has donated money to groups who do serious research. Yet whenever she hires people to do research on her behalf to try to prove her preconceived ideas, the results have very clearly not been serious science, as they break fundamental rules of how such science is supposed to be conducted, and the people she pays to do this KNOW this to be the case, and some have even said so later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirate Jack View Post
are you saying Professor Bower is a yes man?
Yes, Peter and Sally Bower are yes-people, in that they were hired guns given money by Cornwell with the expectation of coming up with answers specifically intended to support Cornwell's case instead of performing adequate research under scientific double blind procedures and so forth. The kind of conclusions they reached about the letters are simply ridiculous, and not at all supported by anyone else. The difference there being that these other people are not on Cornwell's payroll. That should say something to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirate Jack View Post
stop 'Bullying' other people, and try and add something to the case instead of the tiered old Patricia Cornwall bashing we all have to constantly put up with..
I have already added far more to the case than Cornwell (with an E) or certainly you ever have or likely ever will, so stop your bellyaching. It's not "bullying" to point out when people make errors and intentionally distort evidence to support a theory. In fact, your post was the only attempt at bullying in the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirate Jack View Post
I do not think that Walter Sickert was 'Jack the Ripper' but I will defend with my life Patricia Cornwalls right to believe so....
She certainly has the right to believe whatever she believes. Like, say, her claims that poor reviews posted on Amazon and elsewhere for her recent novel were the result of a coordinated campaign by President Bush and his cronies in retaliation for not appearing on an aircraft carrier with the President for a publicity stunt to support the war... if she wants to believe that she couldn't possibly have earned bad reviews on her own without it being the result of a political plot to destroy her, all the more power to her.

But her right to believe things does not mean that she can present error-filled nonsense as if it were facts and get a free pass on it. Her right to believe that Sickert wasn't in France at the time of the Ripper murders like all the actual evidence suggests does not mean we should remain silent when she puts highly distorted information out in public and pretends it's the result of unbiased scientific examinations. Her right to believe that Sickert had "evil eyes" does not mean her claims that Sickert was a woman-hating psychopath who could not have sex (when in fact he had quite a few female friends as well as countless lovers and plenty of rumored children) should be allowed to stand unopposed.

If Cornwell wants to be respected as a Ripper researcher, then she needs to do something worthy of respect, just like everyone else. Throwing millions of dollars around to get people who know better to say whatever you want is not acceptable.
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  #36  
Old 05-16-2008, 09:09 PM
Jeff Leahy Jeff Leahy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty View Post
Jeff,

You seem to have forgotten the attacks upon us (and I use that word as reference to our community) by Patricia.

Yes, she should be applauded but that does not give her the right to insult MY chararcter and my interest in the case.

Nor does it give her the right to exclaim Walter Sickert as a 'sick bastard' and 'killer' when the reality is that she has not proven anything, and that includes letter writing, against the man.

Its deformation of chararcter on both counts. There was no need for it. It was simply done for the hype, yet Im the sad, sick one.

Monty
Few... that was a days mail bag to get through..

I shall take your posts one at a time or it becomes confusing, especially when you've sat through a whole day of intense Final Cut Pro Six but here goes......

Yo Monty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty View Post
Jeff,

You seem to have forgotten the attacks upon us (and I use that word as reference to our community) by Patricia.
Yes somewhere i guess I've missed these references..I dont remember her posting on casebook at any point, and having read her book do not remember any references to Ripperologists? However if this is true, and I would like to know the context, then its a fair comment..Not that I believe, on the whole, we can't handle a little criticism...were all grown ups..I just havnt seen these personal attacks?

However I do remember insults like 'CornBall' being thrown around...and its sort of natural when you come under attack to hit back....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty View Post
Jeff,Yes, she should be applauded but that does not give her the right to insult MY chararcter and my interest in the case.
Monty I had know idea that she had in-fact insulted you directly. Is this by phone or email?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty View Post
Nor does it give her the right to exclaim Walter Sickert as a 'sick bastard' and 'killer' when the reality is that she has not proven anything, and that includes letter writing, against the man.
*%^$ Hold on a minute..is this not what we all do almost every second of the day on casebook...am I missing something here..has anybody actually proved anything against Kosminski, can we say for certainty Tumbelty hated women, was Druit anything other than a nice chap with a family history of depression...accusing innocent people of being Jack the Ripper seems to be what Ripperologists do..150 suspects..they cant all be guilty...perhaps they are all innocent ! this statement is the pot calling the kettle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty View Post
Its deformation of character on both counts. There was no need for it. It was simply done for the hype, yet Im the sad, sick one.
...no your certainly not sad and sick..is this actually what you were accused of?

Monty I stand by my statement because I don't really feel Patricia has done much more than make a case for her suspect..admittedly its not a very good case, more holes than a colander, but she is entitled to make that case the best she can......
my annoyance was that Dan Norder made a thinly disguised attack on Keith Skinner a man that has done more for Ripperology than Dan Norder will ever conceive of...

anyway I'd better push on lots to cover

Yours Jeff
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  #37  
Old 05-16-2008, 09:13 PM
Jeff Leahy Jeff Leahy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I think you must have missed my previous response on the Rippercast thread.

Martin Fido is mistaken about this. The earliest surviving admissions register of the Poor Jews' Temporary Shelter are from 1896. Those up to 1914 are available on an online database:
http://chrysalis.its.uct.ac.za/shelter/shelter.htm
Chris I had completely missed this..thank you for your correction.
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  #38  
Old 05-16-2008, 09:21 PM
Jeff Leahy Jeff Leahy is offline
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Originally Posted by Stewart P Evans View Post
Some authors have been downright dishonest and should expect all they receive in return. But egos and reputations are involved here so it is a contentious and volatile area.
A quote I caught earlier in the week was "There are liars, There are damn liars, and there are Jack The Ripper authors..

Personally I think thats a little hard..they are on the whole more honest than TV producers....

I have nothing against good honest cross fire, by people with passion..

There is a differances between that and attacking things that people can do nothing about..like there sex or race, there glasses...OR being DYSLEXIC!

some people just dont seem to realize when that line is crossed.
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  #39  
Old 05-16-2008, 09:21 PM
Celesta Celesta is offline
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Originally Posted by Emzikle View Post
I think she put up a good arguement but too much of it is based on assumptions and possibilitys.
I think she genuienly believes she's right, however the way she draws conclusions she would have managed to convince herself whichever suspect she had chosen.

Emily

Yes, Emily, I think that's a good point. I also think she rushed this book. She researched but missed some things that are still being debated, like whether the victims were all strangled, or not. If I recall, correctly, she concluded that they were. The book's not tight, but rambling, as if it hadn't gone through much of a rewrite phase. Or she was a bit lost because this was a new form of book for her. She tried to put a little mystery novel flare onto it, and that was distracting. Still, I heard her talk on this, and she had an impressive rage for the victims, so she has my sympathy there. Yet, I feel she would have done the victims a greater service, if she had researched better and seen that she had very little case against this artist. As you point out, her attitude was that she had him and her modern methods would prove it. Her assumption that the letters were legit and were the key, led her off the track. That's not to say that some of the letters might not turn out genuine. So I have used all this verbiage to say, I agree with you!
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  #40  
Old 05-16-2008, 11:46 PM
Jeff Leahy Jeff Leahy is offline
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Originally Posted by Dan Norder View Post
Yes, as I said, she has donated money to groups who do serious research. Yet whenever she hires people to do research on her behalf to try to prove her preconceived ideas, the results have very clearly not been serious science, as they break fundamental rules of how such science is supposed to be conducted, and the people she pays to do this KNOW this to be the case, and some have even said so later.
Serious Science..serious science..what the 'F' are you talking about, what planet are you on...serious science like the Maybrick Diary tests perhaps..shall we all measure the exact quantity of chlorocitimide required?

Yes its a nice gimmick, but the fact is that you are never going to get any DNA, as there are NO surviving artifacts connected directly to the case...The shawl is a fake, the letters are Hoax, the Diary is a Hoax, the knife sat in the garden to long, and the photo-fit produced by your favorite TV program, looks more like Fredie Mercury than it does JtR......bad research..

The unsung heroes are the people who trawl through records..people like Stewart, Chris Scott, Ap, Rob House, and yes.. Keith Skinner..who as you well know is currently doing work for Patricia...I haven't a clue what work..I dont really care..I just object to people like you stabbing my heroes in the back... probably because of some childish vendetta about your publication.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Norder View Post
Yes, Peter and Sally Bower are yes-people, in that they were hired guns given money by Cornwell with the expectation of coming up with answers specifically intended to support Cornwell's case instead of performing adequate research under scientific double blind procedures and so forth. The kind of conclusions they reached about the letters are simply ridiculous, and not at all supported by anyone else. The difference there being that these other people are not on Cornwell's payroll. That should say something to you.
are you really so nieve as this Dan...Have you never ventured into the the world of Maybrick Diary? One thing is for certain if you find me a scientist willing to prove something I'll find you Five willing to prove the opposite...

Some of us simply are not as frightened of scientific gobbledy gook as you appear to be...Science...Smiance...its simply alchemy..

The fact is that if you find one scientist willing to say one thing, I'll find you another five willing to say something else...that is what I do for a living. Grow up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Norder View Post
I have already added far more to the case than Cornwell (with an E) or certainly you ever have or likely ever will, so stop your bellyaching. It's not "bullying" to point out when people make errors and intentionally distort evidence to support a theory. In fact, your post was the only attempt at bullying in the thread.
Well yes Dan..now we see your true colours..lets bash the DYSLEXIC..Lets make fun at Jeff's spelling lets all have a good laugh at teh fact that Jeff jumbles his words up....you find that very funny dont you Dan...probably as funny as I find it when I have to look at your photographs or pictures...ew each bring different talents to the world of Ripperology...I confess that I am nevr going to write a classic book..I leave that to people who are capable of doing so..my hero's..but I have talents to offer also...I offer those with a camera and edit suite..and actually I think I'm pretty damn capable of doing a bettr job than anyone has done before..because I CARE ABOUT RIPPEROLOGY.

I realize my research achievements are small compared with others, but I am proud of what I have done..like re-uniting Hannah Taifords family...doesn't seem like much to you cheeses but it meant a lot to me..

I guess knocking on farm doors in Hunton might seem like a big Joke to you, but actually..and I mean this sincerely..I'm having fun!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Norder View Post
She certainly has the right to believe whatever she believes. Like, say, her claims that poor reviews posted on Amazon and elsewhere for her recent novel were the result of a coordinated campaign by President Bush and his cronies in retaliation for not appearing on an aircraft carrier with the President for a publicity stunt to support the war... if she wants to believe that she couldn't possibly have earned bad reviews on her own without it being the result of a political plot to destroy her, all the more power to her.
I'm not even going there Dan..the fact is that the Iraq war was a massive mistake by the American people..the sooner you get rid of Bush and vote in Hilary or Abarma the better...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Norder View Post
But her right to believe things does not mean that she can present error-filled nonsense as if it were facts and get a free pass on it. Her right to believe that Sickert wasn't in France at the time of the Ripper murders like all the actual evidence suggests does not mean we should remain silent when she puts highly distorted information out in public and pretends it's the result of unbiased scientific examinations. Her right to believe that Sickert had "evil eyes" does not mean her claims that Sickert was a woman-hating psychopath who could not have sex (when in fact he had quite a few female friends as well as countless lovers and plenty of rumored children) should be allowed to stand unopposed.
Sickrt wasn't Jack the Ripper, we are agreed, however I have studied art..and the fact is that he wasn't a very good artist...if Sceptic Blue will forgive my football analogy..

Walter Sickert was the Vini Jones of the Art world..the English dont like it , but the fact is that Anglo Saxons are good at craft and trade.....they have never produced a good artist..how can you seriously compare him to Degas? The French, the Italians even the Spanish make great Art.....the English make Art like they play football...just ask the Irish, Welsh and Scots...

Last weekend I went to the Matisse Museum in Nice..that is Art!

Believe me Patricia is doing walter Sickert a favour

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Norder View Post
If Cornwell wants to be respected as a Ripper researcher, then she needs to do something worthy of respect, just like everyone else. Throwing millions of dollars around to get people who know better to say whatever you want is not acceptable.
Well she's Not is she..Patricia is a crime fiction writer..and a very good one...I believe..as i would..shes employing people who can..theres no disgrace in that...

Each to there talents

Its Just sometimes Dan Norder we really wonder what peoples talents actually are..and if you are what you say you are, a little more humility wouldn't go amiss.

Yours Jeff

PS please do not make the mistake of thinking that the fact that I am dyslexic make me stupid
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