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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Annie Chapman

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  #11  
Old 01-11-2015, 01:17 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Personally speaking, I'd be amazed if Pizer had the chutzpah to swear his oath on an account book and I would have expected it to have at least been a book containing Hebrew text in case the coroner, or someone, had asked to look at it. I also rather imagine that the swearing procedure had been discussed beforehand so that the coroner knew what was coming. Having said that, I have been amazed before in my life and I would absolutely love it if it were true that he swore the oath on an account book, or similar, because it's just so darn amusing.

As for Pizer lying about being known as "Leather Apron", I haven't yet acquired your book Tom - although I certainly will be doing so, and from the snippets of info you have revealed in the other thread, it looks extremely interesting and in a different league to a normal JTR book - but I was naturally intrigued by the fact that Pizer denied being Leather Apron in his press interview on the Wednesday morning but then instantly admitted it at the inquest later that same day. I had assumed in my own mind that the answer was to be found in this statement:

"Up to that moment I did not know that I was called by that name. I have been in the habit of wearing an apron. I have worn it arising from my employment but not recently."

In other words, he hadn't known he was called "Leather Apron" until the police told him he was and, having been told this was the case, he admitted it in the inquest. But maybe I'm taking him too literally and there might be another answer. It may even be in your book!
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  #12  
Old 01-11-2015, 01:39 PM
Robert Robert is offline
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I originally assumed the Torah would be too big to fit in a pocket. But if they can do it now, I guess they could do it then :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Torah-Bo.../dp/082760680X
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  #13  
Old 01-11-2015, 01:42 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Hi David, I think you mentioned you haven't yet read my book? When you do my point will be clearer. Pizer's testimony at the inquest was indeed discussed and decided before hand, so his swearing on something other than holy scripture may indeed have been agreed to. Bottom line is, Pizer produced his own book - which appeared not to be a holy book to the reporter who was probably no stranger to seeing people of all religions sworn in at inquests - and then hurriedly put the book back into his pocket. This all makes perfect sense when added along to the wealth of information I present in my book regarding the Pizer episode.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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  #14  
Old 01-11-2015, 08:40 PM
drstrange169 drstrange169 is offline
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What does a Victorian account book look like and why would Pizer being carrying one? What does a pocket sized Jewish prayer book look like and is it substantially different looking from an account book? Presumably Baxter, the jury and sundry officials would have been nearer to the witness box than the press.

If he was intent on deception, how do we know which questions in his testimony he intended to lie about?

Methinks it must be harvest season as straws are being clutched at.
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  #15  
Old 01-11-2015, 08:53 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drstrange169 View Post
What does a Victorian account book look like and why would Pizer being carrying one? What does a pocket sized Jewish prayer book look like and is it substantially different looking from an account book? Presumably Baxter, the jury and sundry officials would have been nearer to the witness box than the press.

If he was intent on deception, how do we know which questions in his testimony he intended to lie about?

Methinks it must be harvest season as straws are being clutched at.
Well it might work if the Coroner and his staff were as stupid as some want us to believe the police were.
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  #16  
Old 02-19-2015, 05:18 PM
Ginger Ginger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
I originally assumed the Torah would be too big to fit in a pocket. But if they can do it now, I guess they could do it then :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Torah-Bo.../dp/082760680X
Unless I'm greatly mistaken, the Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). Pocket New Testaments and even complete pocket Bibles for soldiers, explorers, travellers, etc, have been around since at least the early Victorian era when reading became a common skill. I'd imagine that pocket Torahs, although probably not as common, were certainly nothing out of the ordinary by 1888.
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  #17  
Old 02-19-2015, 05:50 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger View Post
Unless I'm greatly mistaken, the Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). Pocket New Testaments and even complete pocket Bibles for soldiers, explorers, travellers, etc, have been around since at least the early Victorian era when reading became a common skill. I'd imagine that pocket Torahs, although probably not as common, were certainly nothing out of the ordinary by 1888.
Actually pretty common even then for pocket bibles and prayer books, though they really took off big time in the American Civil War when soldiers carried them into battle.

My Great Uncle had one from about 1800 that had belonged to his Great Grandfather who was a clergymen in late 1700's to his death in 1830, not sure what happened to t when uncle died. It was about the same size as those that were handed out by the Gideons when I was at school.
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  #18  
Old 02-20-2015, 01:52 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Quote:
On being sworn he produced a book from his pocket, which looked like an account-book, and he was sworn upon it.
(My italics)

The journalist doesn't claim that it was an account-book, only that that is what it looked like.
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