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  • Monro's henchmen ?

    Hello all ,


    Here is a slightly different take on my last thread . In both threads i start with the murder and work my way back . i am still very much of the opinion that whoever mutilated these poor women did so with some degree of anatomical knowledge as well as some basic knowledge of Freemasonry , in particular the ( four stages of cruelty , paintings by William Hogarth ) which depict a ritualistic Freemason killing ! The similarity is too great to be coincidence in my mind . Especially as the final victim (Mary Kelly in Millers court) bares a striking resemblance to the fourth painting in the series ( William Hogarth the reward of cruelty ) .. Mary Kelly may well have also been the fourth in a series ! ( i am going on the assumption that Tabram was a warm up and Stride was killed by someone else ) However this does not mean the killer or killers were Freemasons , or even a Doctor for that matter ... i am just playing around with a few ideas , and hopefully i'll get a few questions answered along the way .

    Ok , so Non Freemason James Monroe is forced out of his job by Leading Freemason Charles Warren , And within 24 hours of his replacement ( Robert Anderson ) taking over , Polly Nichols is found butchered in Bucks Row .. And for nine weeks a dark shadow falls over the East End of London .. Until Charles Warren resigns his position , coincidentally on the 9th Nov , the very morning that the last Victim ( Mary Kelly ) is discovered butchered in her room at 13 Millers court .. All of a sudden the murders stop !

    Is it possible that someone was not too happy that a good man was forced out of his job in order to accommodate Anderson ? ( maybe even assuming that Anderson was a Freemason also ) Further more is it then also plausible that such a disgruntled individual or group of individuals would want to point an accusatory finger at the very people they feel the are beyond repercussion .. maybe this kind of thing has been occurring far to often in the life of certain individuals who feel they are being overlooked or outranked for a well deserved promotion in order to accommodate the ( good pal's ) act. Monro was very popular with all he worked with , And there were many unhappy at his forced resignation, Maybe this was the straw that broke the camel's back ...

    So what better way for Monro supporters to seek revenge on those who muscle and elbow their way to the top of the pecking order ( albeit helped up on the orders of others ) than giving them a string of gruesome murders they will never be able to solve ... And even better than that , What if certain false Clues were deliberately left laying about pertaining to the Freemasons , the very Brotherhood that Warren was involved with , Clues that Warren would fully understand but be bound and gagged and unable to mention due to his own Freemason status .. How frustrating would that be for the Commissioner and his new Assistant ?

    Enough already moonbegger

  • #2
    Ok , so Non Freemason James Monroe is forced out of his job by Leading Freemason Charles Warren , And within 24 hours of his replacement ( Robert Anderson ) taking over , Polly Nichols is found butchered in Bucks Row .. And for nine weeks a dark shadow falls over the East End of London .. Until Charles Warren resigns his position , coincidentally on the 9th Nov , the very morning that the last Victim ( Mary Kelly ) is discovered butchered in her room at 13 Millers court .. All of a sudden the murders stop !

    Thuis is IMHO nonsense.

    Facile conspiracy theories based on hot air are whooly unnecessary to explain any of this.

    There was a personality and organisational problem at the heart of London law enforcement in the late 1880s. It was compouned by the nature of Henry Matthews' personailty, but seems to have revolved around defining the powers and responsibilities of the Chief Commissioner. Scortland yard was also in something approaching crisis, folling the scadals of earlier in the decade. In part Warren, with his military background, appears to have been brought in to try to resolve this.

    Munro went because his department did not report directly to the Chief Commissioner, thus Warren could not take accountabiility for its work. A good and real point. There should always be clear accountability in government. Munro continued in his work direct to the Home Secretary.

    There also appear to have been personailityclashes between Warren and Munro, not least over the appointment of Munro's protege, Melville Macnaghten, to a senior post. Warren was probably quite right in his opposition to the appointment.

    Warren resigned over clashes with the Home Office. Munro held his position as Warren's replacement for only a short time. Proof in my opinion of a continuing problem. Warren's position had been undermined both by the press and in relation to the failure to "solve" the Whitechapel murders. But to ascribe his resignation to masonic reasons is absurd. He went on to have a distinguished, if hardly glorious, military career.

    Please show any evidence for masonic influence on warren's military or police work in any other context.

    Stewart Evans and Don Rumbelow are FAR better placed than I to give a view on this, but I think I have set out fair grounds for challenging your thesis.

    Phil H

    Comment


    • #3
      signs

      Hello MB. Thanks for posting this.

      For any part of this theory to work, "Masonic signs" must be established. I cannot see that as having been done.

      Cheers.
      LC

      Comment


      • #4
        Moon

        ...in particular the ( four stages of cruelty , paintings by William Hogarth ) which depict a ritualistic Freemason killing ! The similarity is too great to be coincidence in my mind . Especially as the final victim (Mary Kelly in Millers court) bares a striking resemblance to the fourth painting in the series ( William Hogarth the reward of cruelty )
        Um, well, The Four Stages of Cruelty is a social commentary - what Hogarth is known for? In that particular story, if I recall correctly, the wages of sin result from initial cruelty to animals. The perpetrator progresses until he becomes a murderer, is then executed for his crimes and dissected after death - The Reward of Cruelty.

        All of that makes perfect sense in a contemporary context - it was recently legal then - can't recall the exact Act at the moment - to dissect the bodies of convicted and excuted criminals who would of course not go to heaven because their bodies were not whole, etc - and I'm afraid I cannot see what it has to do with Masonic ritual murder.

        Sounds like hokum to me.

        It does demonstrate how easy it is to string together a few ill-conceived notions and produce a conspiracy however. Easy Peasy.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Lynn,

          I love a good conspiracy theory, so let's get this party started.

          Here's all the masonic symbolism one really needs.

          Click image for larger version

Name:	MasonicSymbol.jpg
Views:	2
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ID:	664270

          A Mitre Square, the inverted Vs under Eddowes' eyes and G for Goulston Street.

          Bingo!

          Regards [and a rolled-up trouser leg],

          Simon
          Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

          Comment


          • #6
            humour

            Hello Simon. Thanks.

            You forgot to mention a strong stomach and a sense of humour.

            Cheers.
            LC

            Comment


            • #7
              A Mitre Square, the inverted Vs under Eddowes' eyes and G for Goulston Street.

              Bingo!
              Well, I'm convinced. Anybody else?

              Comment


              • #8
                wading

                Hello Sally. Well, I'm convinced that--as Simon says--one needs to roll up one's trouser leg. And that to avoid the mess from wading through the bovine faecal material. (heh-heh)

                Cheers.
                LC

                Comment


                • #9


                  Lynn, I concur!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Someone once asked George Pickett why he thought the South lost at Gettysburg.."I think the Yankees had something to do with it"....Equally,all we're looking for here is a murderer(s)...no conspiracy..no cover-up...Just the facts Ma'am.........

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well, I don't believe that there is any sign of anything to do with the Freemasons in any of the Ripper murders.

                      However, I am interested by the fact that you think that there is the possibility, Chris. I think that this dates you as much as the Von Daniken thing.
                      As far as I can see, despite the effort of Dan Brown to revive the idea, the whole popularity & mystique of the Freemasons concept was very much a '60s & '70s 'social climbing' system. Everyone knows that that 'net working' is the best way to get on, and ambitious working class or middle class men were unikely to get on social terms with their bank manager (say) (something that would be very useful if they needed a loan) down the pub or whatever. They didn't have access to the public school 'old boy' network, nor London 'clubs' and they hoped that by joining the Freemasons, it would help their careers by allowing them to network above their class (getting them on silly handshake terms with that bank manager). My dad wasn't a Freemason, but everyone elses dad was that I knew. My cousins went to the Masonic school in Rickmansworth -a public school for children of Freemasons.

                      I don't know that anybody would join the Freemasons today, to 'get on' ?

                      I think that Knight's book (or Barlow & Watson's -I remember watching that- Were they an offshoot of Z-Cars ??) weaving the Freemasons into his (their)Ripper theory, was simply taking a popular '70s idea that had nothing to do with the 19th century, nor any facts.
                      http://youtu.be/GcBr3rosvNQ

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Steve S,

                        " . . . all we're looking for here is a murderer(s) . . ."

                        Don't be too certain.

                        After all, we only think we know what we're looking for. Which is perhaps why we cannot find it.

                        Regards,

                        Simon
                        Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                          Hi Lynn,

                          I love a good conspiracy theory, so let's get this party started.

                          Here's all the masonic symbolism one really needs.

                          [ATTACH]14529[/ATTACH]

                          A Mitre Square, the inverted Vs under Eddowes' eyes and G for Goulston Street.

                          Bingo!

                          Regards [and a rolled-up trouser leg],

                          Simon
                          "G" is also for "golly" and "gee whiz"!
                          Christopher T. George
                          Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conference
                          just held in Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018.
                          For information about RipperCon, go to http://rippercon.com/
                          RipperCon 2018 talks can now be heard at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            And also 'Guilty'

                            No smoke without fire...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think that Knight's book (or Barlow & Watson's -I remember watching that- Were they an offshoot of Z-Cars ??) weaving the Freemasons into his (their)Ripper theory, was simply taking a popular '70s idea that had nothing to do with the 19th century, nor any facts.

                              Knight's book came out in the immediate aftermath of the Watergate affair, when everyone's cyncism was at its height. Before that, I don't think anyone would have taken a conspiracy seriously.

                              Barlow and Watt were used as the "faces" of two series, one looking at unsolved murders of history at the rate of one a week, the second series 6 episodes on JtR. It had high standards and is still watchable and fascinating today.

                              The two characters, the bullying and authoritarian Barlow (Stratford Johns) and the more amenable and thoughtful Watt (Frank Windsor) originated as two senior detectives in "Z Cars" as you say. They later migrated to "Softly, Softly" based in the Thames Valley rather than Liverpool. they were hugely popular TV series and nationally recognised characters, as Morse or Lewis might be today.

                              Phil H

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