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  • #76
    Eddowes neck

    Wound description,"The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side. The large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed. The larynx was severed below the vocal chord. All the deep structures were severed to the bone, the knife marking intervertebral cartilages. The sheath of the vessels on the right side was just opened.

    The carotid artery had a fine hole opening, the internal jugular vein was opened about an inch and a half -- not divided. The blood vessels contained clot. All these injuries were performed by a sharp instrument like a knife, and pointed. "

    Note that Cindy as this illustration is called is 180 degrees opposite of Cathy, and as such the top is in fact the back of the neck. I think maybe in the description that the "fine hole opening" may in fact be a function of a knick caused by a slicing action rather than a hole created by a point. The red dot is the carotid. Dave
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    Last edited by protohistorian; 09-14-2010, 11:35 PM. Reason: spelling
    We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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    • #77
      Mary Kelly's abdomen

      wound description, "The whole of the surface of the abdomen & thighs was removed & the abdominal Cavity emptied of its viscera. "

      viscera

      Dave
      Attached Files
      We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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      • #78
        my head xray

        So I go the doctor yesterday and all he flaps his food flaps about is how I " look familiar". Going to the V.A. is great cause you never see the same guy twice. Any how, I talked him out of a copy of my head x ray. Dave
        Attached Files
        We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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        • #79
          Eddowes Intestines

          Wound described as,"The intestines had been detached to a large extent from the mesentery. About two feet of the colon was cut away. The sigmoid flexure was invaginated into the rectum very tightly."



          Highlighted in aqua on this diagram that was very generously donated to the cause by Joel.
          Attached Files
          We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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          • #80
            mary Kelly basics

            In understanding Mary's described injuries we need to start from scratch again. Here is an illustration of body cavitations. We need to do this in order to grasp the severity of inflicted injuries.

            1) wound description, "The pericardium was open below and the heart absent." This places the killer in the thoracic cavitation (top of diagram).

            2) wound description,"The whole of the surface of the abdomen and thighs was removed and the abdominal cavity emptied of its viscera." This places the killer in the abdominal cavitation. (middle of diagram and separated from the aforementioned cavitation by the physical structure of the diaphragm.

            3) wound statement, " The viscera were found in various parts viz: the uterus and kidneys with one breast under the head," This places the killer in the lowest cavitation on the diagram.

            And so it must be realized that the killer thoroughly explored the interior cavitations of Ms. Kelly. Because there is a physical structure separating two of these cavitations, it can be safely inferred that this was the intent.

            Dave
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            We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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            • #81
              more Mary

              The red circle indicates tampered with organs. Dave
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              We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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              • #82
                Just realized

                ...I just realized it because I am slow poke Rodriguez, that Joel mesentary diagram is a too damn big, here is another try. Dave
                Attached Files
                We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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                • #83
                  I have helpers!

                  ...and oh I am so glad for it! A very big shout out to Joel who is making medically less ignorant, I am sure at some cost to his patience. He is great help in achieving accuracy for me.

                  ...and since I am software challenged as well, an equally large shout out to Jane who is equally generous in explaining the software and even doing the stuff that is clearly beyond my hope to do correctly.

                  In terms of how the reader should understand this, NO POST on this thread would be possible without their efforts in helping my dumb ass, So while my name is on the post, it is in fact a triad of skill making these images correct and understandable. If the truth were told, I am the weakest link in the damn chain. Dave
                  We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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                  • #84
                    Mary Kelly blood vessels

                    This post is not intended to be comprehensive, but a jumping off point for my buddy Joel. The image contains red circles around vessels that would have to be addressed in accomplishing the described wounds. Dave

                    Description,"The neck was cut through the skin & other tissues right down to the vertebrae the 5th & 6th being deeply notched. The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis."




                    description,"The Pericardium was open below & the Heart absent."





                    description,"The viscera were found in various parts viz: the uterus & Kidneys with one breast under the head, the other breast by the Rt foot, the Liver between the feet, the intestines by the right side & the s pleen by the left side of the body. The flaps removed from the abdomen and thighs were on a table."



                    Attached Files
                    We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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                    • #85
                      not ripper related

                      ...but really interseting! In the pursuit of images that can be used to demonstrate different aspects of the wounds I come across some fairly wierd stuff. Submitted for your entertainment. He really nailed it! Dave
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by protohistorian; 09-16-2010, 11:40 AM. Reason: title
                      We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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                      • #86
                        Gross Anatomy

                        Originally posted by joelhall View Post
                        Having said all this to me the killing and mutilations themselves appear to be very obvious clues as to who killed Kelly, which is one of a few reasons I don't believe she was killed by the same man as the other 5 victims
                        I always thought I was alone in this theory. Nice to see I'm not, although my reasoning seems to be slightly different than yours.

                        In general, I feel it is probably worth noting that all of the organs that were taken were the easiest organs to identify in a human body. At least at the turn of the century. I'm not sure I would recognize a kidney if it walked up and introduced itself, but anyone who had ever gone shopping for food in 19th century England would know them instantly. It was a food staple. Now a cow kidney requires some imagination to scale it down to human size, but a pig or a sheep would be about right.

                        The heart is also clearly recognizable, not only as a source of food (yeccch) but also by its placement. We can all put our hand to our chest and know its kinda left of center, and probably isn't squishy. After that you can just feel for it. You are probably going to cut up the liver some trying to get it out, maybe nick the stomach, but nothing about these killings was particularly neat. And it is possible that at least a few of these poor women lived long enough for the killer to locate it by its beating. On the other hand, in the 19th century corpses and organs were kind of everywhere. Butcher shops, butcher carts, kitchens, cat meat vendors, markets... and we aren't that far off from height of the "Autopsy as Spectator Sport" craze.

                        Then there is the uterus. I've heard arguments that the uterus is what requires at least some medical knowledge. Any woman who has had a routine pelvic exam can tell you EXACTLY why that isn't true, and will probably wince while saying it. You don't have to know where it is, or what it looks like. You just have to know that it is attached to the vagina. The rest I leave to you.
                        The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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                        • #87
                          from Annie's inquest

                          "The throat was dissevered deeply. I noticed that the incision of the skin was jagged, and reached right round the neck. On the back wall of the house, between the steps and the palings, on the left side, about 18in from the ground, there were about six patches of blood, varying in size from a sixpenny piece to a small point,"

                          This is an 1887 sixpence in actual size, Dave
                          Attached Files
                          We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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                          • #88
                            Stride's neck

                            Dr. Blackwell's comments, "The incision in the neck commenced on the left side, 2 inches below the angle of the jaw,..."

                            Image shows a red line 90 degrees out from the angle of the jaw and 5cm in scaled length. An incision at this position would correspond to the lower 4th cervical vertebra. Dave
                            Attached Files
                            We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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                            • #89
                              Stride's neck again

                              Description,"There was a clear-cut incision on the neck. It was six inches in length and commenced two and a half inches in a straight line below the angle of the jaw, one half inch in over an undivided muscle, and then becoming deeper, dividing the sheath."

                              I believe this refers to the carotid sheath. This structure is in red in the diagram. Dave
                              Attached Files
                              We are all born cute as a button and dumb as rocks. We grow out of cute fast!

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                              • #90
                                Practical heart removal

                                Hello All,
                                Thought I may make a visitor contribution on your anatomy class. Nice to see Joel and Protohistorian have introduced a science perspective.
                                Having once been a serial killer with a Home Office license endorsed by the Royal College of Surgeons, I can offer some practical experience to this debate. Fortunately for mankind, my victims weren’t human and they sacrificed their lives to provide the benefits that modern medicine provides.

                                In pursuit of pharmacological research within a British university, I required ex-vivo mammalian hearts that could be maintained live for several hours. To do this required rapid “butchery” to remove the live hearts of 40 or more rabbits over some weeks. While otherwise, with time permitting, I had good skills in animal surgery. The removal of the heart required exceptional speed and the finesse of surgical precision was not a priority, nutrients to the heart took precedence. Getting the technique right took a few casualties before the method settled down. It’s surprising that we didn’t hear more of Mr Ripper’s early failures or perhaps they were confined by academic walls.

                                The animal was rendered decerebrate with a stunning blow to the occipital/neck region, laid on its back and the fur/skin, most times with blunt end scissors and rolled off laterally to reveal the facia of the thorax and abdomen. Using rat-tooth forceps and blunt nose scissors the abdominal fascia and peritoneum were cut from the lower point of the thorax to the pelvis. This incision was extended laterally at the thorax end to produce flaps, thus taking off the retention pressure of the abdominal contents that flopped out. Two fingers, (un-gloved for sensitivity) were inserted above the liver lobes and stomach to feel the diaphragm. Gentle pressure pushed the abdominal contents aside – to access the diaphragm which was not easily seen because it embeds into the thoracic cavity. Sharp point scissors guided by the top of the two fingers penetrated the diaphragm. The upper border was cut and the fingers entered the thoracic cavity to feel for the (usually) pulsing heart.
                                Decerebration usually cuts the heart off from vagal and sympathetic nerve control and with vagal escape the heart may cease beating until the intrinsic mechanism restarts in the heart muscle.
                                The heart complete with pericardium can be pulled down sufficient to allow blunt nose scissors to severe all attachments, blood vessels, lungs, etc. This was done relatively blind and by feel only. Usually the heart was free of the pericardium at this stage but still attached at the root of the blood vessels entering the heart. It was important to take out as much of the aortic trunk and vena cavae as possible since the pulmonary artery had to be cannulated quickly to provide oxygenated mammalian Ringers solution to perfuse the heart tissues. With practice this whole procedure could be done within 2 minutes.
                                In larger animals and humans I would imagine the procedure would be easier because the whole hand could be inserted with less delicacy and more “grasping” capability.
                                From Bonds description viz: “The intercostals between the 4th, 5th & 6th ribs were cut through & the contents of the thorax visible through the openings” it would seem Mr Ripper had attempted a thorax approach to the removal but found it too difficult to complete. Alternatively, this could have been another portal to assist a diaphragm exit. This may explain why the pericardium was still in the thorax, he was able to cut around the entry vessels. Viz: “The Pericardium was open below & the Heart absent.”

                                The relevant aspects to the ripper “mutilations” are;

                                • It is not necessary to demonstrate surgical skill in removing organs if the victim is not intended to survive and time is critical.

                                • It is most certainly necessary to have the knowledge to know where, how and what to do and nothing is random if a specific organ is to be removed.

                                • Some of the mutilations indicate surgical skill no matter how crudely other aspects might seem, particularly Chapman’s uterus, Eddowes’s kidney and Kelly’s heart. It is easier for the skilled to display ignorance on demand, but the ignorant cannot demonstrate skill when required. I don’t believe a butcher or slaughterman would go out of their way to remove a kidney from its capsule or a heart from the pericardium, this could be done once the organs were removed.

                                • The organs removed were “targeted” not for any intrinsic value of the organs but for their symbolic relevance to the killer’s personal narrative.

                                • The medical profession of the day had a vested interest (and still do) to debunk any skills of a medical mutilator, after all how many patients would visit a doctor who’s hobby was potentially Mr Ripper.
                                Most people find these procedures revolting, the smell of warm peristalting guts, the slippy, serous fluid nature of the abdominal cavity; this demands a detachment which for most is only temporary while doing the procedure. I still feel my stomach retching on recalling 5 years work in this field, almost 50 years later.

                                What Mr Ripper did, does not just appear overnight without prior experience and familiarity with live, physical hands on learning. I do not believe that the killer picked up the skills from watching slaughtering or as he went along from victim to victim. He may well have modified his technique to suit the circumstances but generally he was adept before beginning his rampage. I can understand some temerity improving to confidence as his public street demonstrations proceed and I suspect that Kelly could have been the culminating catharsis of his anger towards women, but not necessarily the last burn out.

                                The force exerted in the incisions to the neck, are to me, indicative of a need for certainty that he had severed the major blood vessels. It was not an attempt to remove the head. His intent was to kill quickly and certainly. The Tabram killing was very likely his first because it released the explosive anger which needed venting before being able to exercise more rationality and technique in his method. The medical profession is not taught or trained to kill people and to do so would require learning procedures that are improved and adapted to circumstance. Because of adaptive changes continually changing, it is forensically unreliable to consider modus operandi as the common thread that links victims to the same killer.

                                Hope that some of this may help to stitch together some of the open questions, well done and regards to all. DG

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