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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Kidney, Michael

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  #21  
Old 05-10-2011, 07:48 PM
Phil H Phil H is offline
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cd

If it was Kidney, wouldn't you expect some sort of loud argument between him and Liz? The club members heard nothing.

Wasn't there singing and entertainment going on? People can and do miss things. Wasn't there a thread on here about accoustics (maybe in Mitre Square) where a poster recounted a story in which he slept through a police raid at the next door house, or some such?

Maybe it was a quiet but fierce row.

Would you expect Liz to be slapped around a little bit by him? There were no marks on her face.

Maybe there wasn't any "slapping around". She said something or moved away, he grabbed her and used his knife to slit her throat. Whomever killed her, Liz ended up dead without much bruising it appears.

Phil
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  #22  
Old 05-10-2011, 11:40 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello CD.

"Where did little Socialists come from[?]"

Socialists/anarchists, like many with non-mainstream views, were propagated by propaganda (forgive the pun).

"You don't see them as having any interest in sex whatsoever [?]"

Actually, they did. Matter of fact, they wrote a great deal about "free love" and considered marriage a form of prostitution, of which they took an EXTREMELY dim view.

Simple fact is, the socialists/anarchists, as a group, were far too poor to afford prostitutes.

I have read reams recently (ooh, alliteration!) about anarchists and socialists--including an entire volume of William Morris' personal letters. If you are interested in pursuing this, I'd be delighted to send along a reading list.

Cheers.
LC
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  #23  
Old 05-11-2011, 07:49 AM
drstrange169 drstrange169 is offline
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Why did the socialists drink camomile tea?

Because they thought all proper tea was theft.
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"Whenever an expert says something that bolsters the Lechmere theory, it is not my task to disprove him ..."
Fisherman
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  #24  
Old 05-11-2011, 04:36 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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"Simple fact is, the socialists/anarchists, as a group, were far too poor to afford prostitutes."

Hi Lynn,

What do you base that on? Liz was not a high priced call girl. She operated in a very poor area frequented by very poor men. Don't we always assume that the price of her services was basically equal to the price of a drink? Why would the anarchists be any different than the rest of her customers?

c.d.
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  #25  
Old 05-11-2011, 06:16 PM
Phil H Phil H is offline
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Why do we assume that Liz Stride was soliciting outside the IWMC?

To me all the evidence suggests that she had been on a date well away from her usual haunts.

The flower she wore and the cashews (cashous?) she held seem to indicate (to me at least) that her evening had been a somewhat "romantic" one.

These women were undoubtedly "unfortunate" in every sense of the word, but let's not accuse Stride of something she may not have been guilty of on this occasion.

Phil
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  #26  
Old 05-11-2011, 06:31 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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Hi Phil,

It's "cachous" not cashews. Cashews are nuts.

It is a reasonable assumption that a known prostitute standing outside a club for men by herself late at night is probably soliciting. It is certainly not the only possibility however.

As for the date scenario, we only have evidence as to how the evening started. We don't know what took place before her death. Dates can end.

c.d.
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  #27  
Old 05-11-2011, 06:47 PM
Phil H Phil H is offline
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I don't know why I started spelling Cashous as Cashews!! Maybe I'm nuts!!!

Would a woman probably in her "best" clothes and who had it seems taken considerable pains over her appearance that evening, resort to prostitution as soon as what seems a "romantic" evening had ended.

How can you tell at a glance if a woman is standing outside a Club waiting for someone who has gone inside and someone seeking trade? Surely there are times when even "shilling whores" (a phrase Michael Caine uses in the 1988 series) did not actively seek business.

I agree her being there may have been mistaken as soliciting and led to an assault when she refused; or that she may have been mistaken as a prostitute by "Jack" and killed by him. But somehow I don't find either scenario psychologically convincing.

Phil
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  #28  
Old 05-11-2011, 07:06 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Phil. Your last 2 posts show remarkable good sense. Too bad they do not fit the lurid stereotype of 5 quarters of a century.

So, thinking like that, sir, you might actually solve these cases.

Cheers.
LC
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  #29  
Old 05-11-2011, 07:14 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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I am logged in but when I attempt to post it bounces me out and I lose what I have written. Is anybody else having this problem?

Hi Phil,

There is no evidence that Liz had "best" clothes. I also think "considerable pains" is a stretch. We don't know her pre going out routine. Wasn't she know as someone who took pride in her appearance? It is also not unreasonable that she wanted to look good to attract customers. I don't see how we can say conclusively that she was preparing for a date.

If she was seen with any men that night, it does not necessarily imply that she was on a date. They might have been customers who were lonely and willing to pay a little more for her time.

She might have resorted to prostitution that night if she needed a drink and had no money to pay for it.

It is reasonable to assume that someone (Jack) could have assumed she was soliciting given her circumstances.

c.d.
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  #30  
Old 05-11-2011, 07:37 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello CD. Sorry, I missed your post. You asked, regarding the anarchist's penury:

"What do you base that on?"

My reply, rigourous research. And that is ALWAYS superior to mere theorising.

Cheers.
LC
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