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Joe Barnett's 'wife' Louisa

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  • #61
    Joe and Mary Jane

    Originally posted by JadenCollins View Post
    Pat,

    Who else would she turn to? Even though they broke up, Joe was the only one she could actually turn to. Of course he would help her, he was still madly in love with her. He was also the first to give his statement. He clearly lied to the police, he knew that wasn't Mary.

    But then the question is; why did Mary disappear? Why didn't she tell the truth? Did she get herself in some kind of trouble and had to disappear?
    Hello, Jaden--

    It took me a little while to find this, but I posted this back in September of this year on the "Maxwell Discrepancy" thread in the Witnesses section of Casebook:

    "I think it was another witness who claimed to see Mary Kelly in the bar, but the rest of your first paragraph is correct.

    But this is all based on the idea that IF Maxwell was correct in identifying Kelly, THEN she must have been murdered later... What if we look at it from a different point of view?

    What if Mary and Joe decided to fix up a hoax to help Mary slip away from whatever she seemed to be afraid of (whether JtR, ex-boyfriend, McCarty, Fenians, fill in the blank), and they decided to let the room that night. Maybe Joe promised he'd handle the details if she went into hiding. Maybe he (or they) went out and found a woman (probably in a pub) that was similar to Mary Jane in height, hair and eye color, offered her a safe place in MJK's room, then went away. I don't think they meant to have the woman murdered, but needed an occupant in the place while they snuck away leaving the rent unpaid. Perhaps Mary Jane returned early in the morning, found the terrible scene, and became sick at the sight and her near escape. That would allow for the sightings of her that morning to make sense... Although, I admit, her actions the previous night, as well as being seen the following morning don't really make a lot of sense.

    Unless Joe wanted a woman who resembled Mary in order to have her impersonate Mary, the previous evening. Was Hutchinson in on the plot as well?
    Perhaps distracting the police with their search for a phony man in a fancy coat?

    Joe identified the dead woman as Mary, because he knew she could still escape. Did he disappear as well?"

    It seems pertinent to your questions here, and is perhaps the best way to answer your questions to me. As you can see, I like the idea of Joe helping Mary escape (from whatever the threat was), and being the one who "identifies" the corpse as being that of MJK.
    Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
    ---------------
    Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
    ---------------

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
      Now this is interesting, and makes a lot of sense. Though if the murder was in daylight, then we must toss out the notion that Mary escaped by means of mistaken identity, since the killer would not have been working in complete darkness. So much for that line of thought...
      And you also have to wonder why such a big fire was needed.

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      • #63
        'Midnight flits' as they were known (people leaving rental property without paying rent owed) happened all the time in poor districts. It wasn't as if Mary had furniture to smuggle out, just a few clothes and odds and ends. She could have left for other parts of London at any time.

        Why go through an elaborate subterfuge involving a man (Joe) from whom she was already separated and for whom she probably really didn't care that much?

        I think women all over the East End were terrified of JTR, but some had to make a few pennies for food and drink (and rent) and so went out on the streets in the dark. It's not unknown for people to say afterwards of murder victims (especially female prostitutes) that they appeared to be 'afraid' of a mysterious something or someone shortly before their deaths.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
          Hello, Jaden--

          It took me a little while to find this, but I posted this back in September of this year on the "Maxwell Discrepancy" thread in the Witnesses section of Casebook:

          "I think it was another witness who claimed to see Mary Kelly in the bar, but the rest of your first paragraph is correct.

          But this is all based on the idea that IF Maxwell was correct in identifying Kelly, THEN she must have been murdered later... What if we look at it from a different point of view?

          What if Mary and Joe decided to fix up a hoax to help Mary slip away from whatever she seemed to be afraid of (whether JtR, ex-boyfriend, McCarty, Fenians, fill in the blank), and they decided to let the room that night. Maybe Joe promised he'd handle the details if she went into hiding. Maybe he (or they) went out and found a woman (probably in a pub) that was similar to Mary Jane in height, hair and eye color, offered her a safe place in MJK's room, then went away. I don't think they meant to have the woman murdered, but needed an occupant in the place while they snuck away leaving the rent unpaid. Perhaps Mary Jane returned early in the morning, found the terrible scene, and became sick at the sight and her near escape. That would allow for the sightings of her that morning to make sense... Although, I admit, her actions the previous night, as well as being seen the following morning don't really make a lot of sense.

          Unless Joe wanted a woman who resembled Mary in order to have her impersonate Mary, the previous evening. Was Hutchinson in on the plot as well?
          Perhaps distracting the police with their search for a phony man in a fancy coat?

          Joe identified the dead woman as Mary, because he knew she could still escape. Did he disappear as well?"

          It seems pertinent to your questions here, and is perhaps the best way to answer your questions to me. As you can see, I like the idea of Joe helping Mary escape (from whatever the threat was), and being the one who "identifies" the corpse as being that of MJK.
          Thanks, Pat
          It does answer my question.
          It will always be "WHAT IF", and I know some find it a ridiculous theory but who knows? And I don't understand why many here try to avoid this option? And try to prove it wrong just because it doesn't suit "THE STORY". With this case, you can't just stick to one theory.
          “If I cannot bend heaven, I will raise hell.”

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by JadenCollins View Post
            Thanks, Pat
            It does answer my question.
            It will always be "WHAT IF", and I know some find it a ridiculous theory but who knows? And I don't understand why many here try to avoid this option? And try to prove it wrong just because it doesn't suit "THE STORY". With this case, you can't just stick to one theory.
            I agree, Jaden, there are many interesting paths to check out and there's no reason not to explore each one thoroughly.

            curious

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            • #66
              Hi Mystery Singer
              Sorry for my delay in responding to your question about Joe Barnett.
              Several of us did a lot of research several years ago into Joe Barnett and his wife Louisa (either on this forum or the other one) ...
              I have the marriage certificate of the Joe Barnett / Agnes Rowe marriage. Unfortunately it's not "our" Joseph. The one who married Agnes was a musician, and his father was Michael Barnett, a coachman.
              I have Joe and Louisa's death certificate also.
              Unfortunately it looks like they were never married in church or civil service (many poorer folk back then didn't marry but called themselves married in census).
              Bounce back if I need to go back through previous notes to find more detail.
              All the best
              Craig

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              • #67
                Originally posted by curious View Post
                I agree, Jaden, there are many interesting paths to check out and there's no reason not to explore each one thoroughly.

                curious
                Exactly!
                “If I cannot bend heaven, I will raise hell.”

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Craig H View Post
                  Hi Mystery Singer
                  Sorry for my delay in responding to your question about Joe Barnett.
                  Several of us did a lot of research several years ago into Joe Barnett and his wife Louisa (either on this forum or the other one) ...
                  I have the marriage certificate of the Joe Barnett / Agnes Rowe marriage. Unfortunately it's not "our" Joseph. The one who married Agnes was a musician, and his father was Michael Barnett, a coachman.
                  I have Joe and Louisa's death certificate also.
                  Unfortunately it looks like they were never married in church or civil service (many poorer folk back then didn't marry but called themselves married in census).
                  Bounce back if I need to go back through previous notes to find more detail.
                  All the best
                  Craig
                  Hey Craig!

                  Do you have any data of Joe after MJK's death? ( 1888-1890? )


                  Jaden
                  “If I cannot bend heaven, I will raise hell.”

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