Mitre Sq., arranged meeting scenarios

[spyglass]

Good point. This requires an explanation.

Why was she going that way when she said she would in trouble for not being at home?

Even wikipedia says...

instead of turning right to take the shortest route to her home in Flower and Dean Street, she turned left towards Aldgate

Damn if that doesn't actually give more credence to this 'arranged meeting' idea.

And then think about the statement made by Mr Bikonsopp. . ( hope spelt correctly ) .If true, was she being followed ?

[Batman]

And then think about the statement made by Mr Bikonsopp. . ( hope spelt correctly ) .If true, was she being followed ?

Blenkingsop, the night watchman on duty in St. James Place, is very interesting. He had an encounter with a well-dressed man asking if a woman or man had passed by at 1:30, 14 minutes before Eddowes body was found.

Sugden says if we say he got the time wrong and it was after 1:45, then this well-dressed man was likely an undercover officer. Which sort of makes sense.

However, that doesn't explain why Eddowes is off on a journey that isn't taking her quickly home after leaving the drunk tank.

It also has the problem of saying a night watchman isn't a very good time keeper, when one would think time keeping a sort of part of their job.

Yet in the context of an 'arranged meeting', this can fit and Blenkingsop has witnessed JtR.

[DJA]

IF JtR knew his victims, then from the pub and using their services would be the most obvious avenue. He would be someone they would never directly suspect. He would probably have scores of these women who know him from around Whitechapel with a possibility that each of these women who may have known each other, may not have known they both know the same person. So wouldn't even link him up unless they saw him with the other person or they talked about them.

What this means is that any of these women out at night would be a potential candidate in the right place at the right time for JtR to shed his trustworthy friendly character and show himself the monster he really is.

In short, he doesn't have to be specifically out looking for Nicholas that night, even if he had a drink with her before. He could be looking for any of his known lady 'friends' of the night. Obviously, any of them will do.

Perhaps Jack was their medical officer who kept a bolt hole in Mitre Street that backed into Mitre Square.

[Wickerman]

As I mentioned before, it all depends on how we seethe killer.
I personally don't see Jack as the type of killer who would hang out and have a drink with his victim. I pretty much believe that he walked casually around whitechapel in areas where he might just get lucky and not be seen. The victim would have accosted him and they would go to a dark place and he killed them.

Agreed, in general yes.

If Jack was seen with his victim, then surely someone would have come forward and said that they saw them having a jolly time in such and such a pub.

Yet, isn't that what happened with Stride?
She was seen with a man at the Bricklayers Arms 2 hrs before she was found murdered. We can't say if this was her killer, but we can't say he wasn't either.

Nichols was murdered after the pubs had closed, and Chapman just after they had opened in the morning.
Eddowes & Kelly - after the pubs closed.
So we could only have the one example with Stride, which doesn't make for a justifiable argument.

Which is why I favor the first scenario, he came upon his victims at random.

[Batman]

Eddowes vanished for 30 minutes

Eddowes also has another period of time where nobody knows where she was. Taking this longer route 'to home' ended up with her getting to Mitre Sq, in approx. 30 min, despite it being an eight-minute walk. Obviously, she would have been the worse after her drinking session, but the PCs thought she sober enough and she was able to walk out of their verbally chatting away to them.

Nobody knows where she was. Lewende and company apparently the only ones to see her after she left the drunk tank.

It's apparent because she is dead that she met company going the wrong way home and said company was JtR and they must have entertained each other for quite a while before she appears to have had no issues going off to a pitch black corner of a tucked away square with him. She also must have known PCs were on the beat around the place. Yet here she is risking attention from the PCs once again by going away with him. The trust must have been significant.

[DJA]

Eddowes also has another period of time where nobody knows where she was. Taking this longer route 'to home' ended up with her getting to Mitre Sq, in approx. 30 min, despite it being an eight-minute walk. Obviously, she would have been the worse after her drinking session, but the PCs thought she sober enough and she was able to walk out of their verbally chatting away to them.

Nobody knows where she was. Lewende and company apparently the only ones to see her after she left the drunk tank.

It's apparent because she is dead that she met company going the wrong way home and said company was JtR and they must have entertained each other for quite a while before she appears to have had no issues going off to a pitch black corner of a tucked away square with him. She also must have known PCs were on the beat around the place. Yet here she is risking attention from the PCs once again by going away with him. The trust must have been significant.

If Eddowes was unaware of Stride's demise,she may have been in Jack's bolthole.
Jack strangles her as the PC passes and drags her out into Mitre Square.

[jerryd]

Decoy

Or maybe she lost her nose for being one.

The Star
WEDNESDAY, 3 OCTOBER, 1888

The services of "noses" - that is to say, people who are hand in glove with persons of indifferent character, are frequently called into play, and they are deputed to go to the low lodging-houses and other places that are the resort of low characters, and keep their eyes and ears open for anything likely to give a clue to the individual or individuals wanted. Women often act as "noses."

[jerryd]

And then think about the statement made by Mr Bikonsopp. . ( hope spelt correctly ) .If true, was she being followed ?

The City police were watching a suspect that night. They had a stakeout near Windor Street. This location was directly behind the Bishopgate Police Station. The officers were ordered to keep an eye out specifically for couples. If Lawende was right, and the rain was heavy, they may have lost track of her if she took cover somewhere. No mention of her clothes being wet. The men speaking to James Blenkinsop, imo, were undercover officers.

[jerryd]

Suppose the police had a Jewish suspect. Why not employ a nose at three locations to catch him. One at an IWEC meeting that night in Berner Street, one nose at another Jewish Workingman’s Club meeting that same night at Mitre Square( The Imperial Club) and a stakeout at his bolthole near Windsor Street. Unfortunately, all three didn’t end well. Five minutes after the news of the murder of Eddowes, the two detectives responsible for watching Windsor Street hurried back to the location but were unsuccessful n tracking the murderer down.

[Trevor Marriott]

Good point. This requires an explanation.

Why was she going that way when she said she would in trouble for not being at home?

Even wikipedia says...

instead of turning right to take the shortest route to her home in Flower and Dean Street, she turned left towards Aldgate

Damn if that doesn't actually give more credence to this 'arranged meeting' idea.

She was only seen to turn left when leaving the police station, who is to say that after turning left she realized she had turned the wrong way, and turned around. If she had done this she would not have been seen by the officer who was still inside, and after she had left the station went about his business.

Who is to say that she didnt make her way home, and at the last minute decided to go back towards the city to try to earn some money. She might have though that the lodging house would be shut at that time of the night

Because by going to a dark secluded spot at that time of the morning, suggests that she was prostituting herself, and not going to have a friendly chat with someone she knew, and had a pre arranged meeting with.

The reality is that she was a vulnerable female alone at that time of the night. The killer of the other women was also preying on vulnerable women alone at that time of the morning. She just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time as were the other victims.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

Even wikipedia says...

instead of turning right to take the shortest route to her home in Flower and Dean Street, she turned left towards Aldgate

Not that she had a home, really.

[Sam Flynn]

Eddowes also has another period of time where nobody knows where she was. Taking this longer route 'to home' ended up with her getting to Mitre Sq, in approx. 30 min, despite it being an eight-minute walk.

It was raining that night (confirmed by weather reports and Lawende and co), so it's quite possible that some or much of the missing time was taken up by Eddowes taking cover from the showers.

The same applies to our putative "Double Eventer" making his way from Berner Street to Dukes Place, of course. Either he braved the showers - in which case he'd have got rather wet - or he too periodically ducked out of the rain, which would further curtail the time available for him to find a suitable second victim.

[Batman]

It was raining that night (confirmed by weather reports and Lawende and co), so it's quite possible that some or much of the missing time was taken up by Eddowes taking cover from the showers.

The same applies to our putative "Double Eventer" making his way from Berner Street to Dukes Place, of course. Either he braved the showers - in which case he'd have got rather wet - or he too periodically ducked out of the rain, which would further curtail the time available for him to find a suitable second victim.

Yes, it was raining and even Stride witnesses describe people standing in out of the rain in doorways. However, it seems the rain wasn't always hard and that allowed for Lewende and company to leave when it wasn't as bad. So certainly being in out of the rain during the hardest times would be the obvious thing anyone would do. Lewende says it was bad at 01:30 and for at least 5-10 minutes before they could go out.

When Eddowes was left out, the PCs didn't seem to mention she turned left into heavy rain. So we can assume that at 01:00 it wasn't so bad, which would also have been around the time Strides body turned up.

So somewhere between 01:00 and 01:30 the rainy weather got worse.

So if we go for an average there, we could say it started to get bad again about 01:15.

So where would Eddowes be en route towards Duke St. via, from the drunk tank at 01:15?

It is eight minutes from the drunk tank to Mitre Sq. She could have even gone to London Bridge in 18 minutes.

So 30 min here is a ton a time and even the rains don't seem to help say she may have stopped at a certain point on Duke St., in out of the rain.

However, it is almost certain she did if she went that way.

If she turned back to go home once out of the drunk tank and then back into Duke St., again, as Trevor is mentioning, it is a 9-10 min walk there and back. So that's 20 min walking. She could, hypothetically, be in Mitre Sq., by 01:20 approx. Which gives her another 10 minutes until seen by Lewende.

The fact is, we don't know where she is for those 30 minutes and nobody except Lewende saw her in all that time going about, IF, she was going about that much.

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, it was raining and even Stride witnesses describe people standing in out of the rain in doorways. However, it seems the rain wasn't always hard and that allowed for Lewende and company to leave when it wasn't as bad. So certainly being in out of the rain during the hardest times would be the obvious thing anyone would do. Lewende says it was bad at 01:30 and for at least 5-10 minutes before they could go out.

When Eddowes was left out, the PCs didn't seem to mention she turned left into heavy rain. So we can assume that at 01:00 it wasn't so bad, which would also have been around the time Strides body turned up.

So somewhere between 01:00 and 01:30 the rainy weather got worse.

So if we go for an average there, we could say it started to get bad again about 01:15.

So where would Eddowes be en route towards Duke St. via, from the drunk tank at 01:15?

It is eight minutes from the drunk tank to Mitre Sq. She could have even gone to London Bridge in 18 minutes.

So 30 min here is a ton a time and even the rains don't seem to help say she may have stopped at a certain point on Duke St., in out of the rain.

However, it is almost certain she did if she went that way.

If she turned back to go home once out of the drunk tank and then back into Duke St., again, as Trevor is mentioning, it is a 9-10 min walk there and back. So that's 20 min walking. She could, hypothetically, be in Mitre Sq., by 01:20 approx. Which gives her another 10 minutes until seen by Lewende.

The fact is, we don't know where she is for those 30 minutes and nobody except Lewende saw her in all that time going about, IF, she was going about that much.

She could have been loitering in the vicinity of the club from where Lawenede and the others came out of, same as Stride could have been loitering around the International club

It would be interesting to know more about the club etc, to know how busy it would have been at that time of the morning.

There are so many plausible permutations

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Batman]

She could have been loitering in the vicinity of the club from where Lawenede and the others came out of, same as Stride could have been loitering around the International club

It would be interesting to know more about the club etc, to know how busy it would have been at that time of the morning.

There are so many plausible permutations

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I think investigators would have at the very least gone into those pubs/clubs to ask if such a woman had been seen or served. So I think we can say she wasn't in one, but possibly outside of one or using its doorway, but unseen by anybody, just like JtR was, until Lewende sees them.