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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > General Suspect Discussion

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  #1  
Old 12-28-2015, 02:42 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Default A present for Scotland Yard

Hi,

The hypothesis that Jack the Ripper was a policeman could be corroborated by different findings on the crime scenes.

I have postulated that this is the case with the cuts on Eddowes cheeks and, before that, Lechmere´s seeing of a policeman and lying about this in the Nichols case.

As I have stated before, I think that Jack the Ripper also committed at least two of the dismemberment murders.

In 1888, parts of a female victim was placed at the construction site for the new Scotland Yard building.

My hypothesis is that Jack the Ripper wanted to taunt the police by giving them a present, placing it in their new police building.


Naturally this was a high risk site for the killer, and high risk sites is something we find in his MO all the time.

This is what should have happened:

"The second victim of the Thames series was discovered in September of 1888, in the middle of the hunt for the Whitechapel Murder. On September 11, an arm belonging to a female was discovered in the Thames off Pimlico. On September 28, another arm was found along the Lambeth-road and on October 2, the torso of a female, minus the head, was discovered. The torso was discovered on the grounds of the construction site for the New Scotland Yard building and was dubbed by the press the "Whitehall Mystery." Scotland Yard had a murder mystery to solve even before their new building was complete.

The medical men involved, along with Dr. Bond, agreed that a degree of medical knowledge had been used, but they could give no evidence pointing to the method of death. Dr. Charles Hibbert, who examined one of the arms, stated that, "I thought the arm was cut off by a person who, while he was not necessarily an anatomist, certainly knew what he was doing-who knew where the joints were and cut them pretty regularly." At the inquest, the jury, despite the fact that an obvious murder had taken place, returned a verdict of "Found Dead.""

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...o-murders.html

Now, the person responsible for the dismemberment murders could be said to have another MO than the Whitechapel killer. But serial killers using different methods or changing their MO:s is nothing unusual. The Zodiac Killer did that for instance.

So one has to think about what could connect the dismemberment murders to the Whitechapel murders.


My hypothesis is that the taunting of the police and the mutilations connects them.

An interesting aspect of the theory about the Whitechapel killer being the Dismemberment killer is that he then should have worked both in the East End and in the West End. This shows the killer to have a bigger geographical working area but it also means that he were crossing boundaries, something he also did in the case of the double event.

But the perhaps most interesting aspect is that with the dismemberment murders he could taunt the police by distributing pieces of the victims over a bigger are and at the same time he could murder women and mutilate the bodies in a more extensive way.

I know that many of you are very interested in the Whitechapel killer and have built your knowledge of Jack the Ripper with focus on his murders in Whitechapel (and Mitre Square). So perhaps the dismemberment murders are as new to you as they are to me and we could discuss them, starting from an hypothesis that Jack the Ripper did those too. Or maybe you have lots of knowledge about the dismemberment murders and would like to comment on this.

Kind Regards, Pierre

Last edited by Pierre : 12-28-2015 at 02:50 AM.
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  #2  
Old 12-28-2015, 02:45 AM
GUT GUT is offline
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And this is Pierre's startling revelation
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G U T

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Last edited by GUT : 12-28-2015 at 03:03 AM.
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  #3  
Old 12-28-2015, 02:59 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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You call that a starling!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starli...I_IMG_2508.jpg
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  #4  
Old 12-28-2015, 03:48 AM
John G John G is offline
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I do not believe that the Torso and Whitechapel murders are linked because of the vastly different MOs. For instance, the Torso killer used dump sites, suggesting a significantly more organized offender. This is even more problematic when you consider that some of the Torso murders pre-dated the Whitechapel murders, whilst others post-dated these crimes.

I agree that the Whitehall Torso was probably intended to taunt the police, something that I argued several months ago (mind you, it's nice to see that you might be taking inspiration from some of my earlier posts!)

Overall, as you seem to be linking the Torso Murders (although technically cause of death wasn't established) with the Whitechapel murders I would have to conclude that your research is fundamentally flawed. Sorry, but there you have it.

By the way, Zodiac is a poor example to cite as a comparator because he was never caught, therefore we cannot know which murders he may or may not have committed, or even whether such a serial killer existed at all: personally I think he was largely mythical.

Last edited by John G : 12-28-2015 at 03:51 AM.
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  #5  
Old 12-28-2015, 05:05 AM
Shaggyrand Shaggyrand is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GUT View Post
And this is Pierre's startling revelation
You didn't hear dramatic organ music while reading the post? I did, made it a thrilling read, but that might have been my neighbor practicing.
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  #6  
Old 12-28-2015, 06:04 AM
MysterySinger MysterySinger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
I do not believe that the Torso and Whitechapel murders are linked because of the vastly different MOs. For instance, the Torso killer used dump sites, suggesting a significantly more organized offender......
I can't help thinking that JTR was very organised in many respects.
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  #7  
Old 12-28-2015, 06:30 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysterySinger View Post
I can't help thinking that JTR was very organised in many respects.
Hi,

Depending on how many victims he may be responsible for I would say that he exhibited both organised and disorganized characteristics, but mainly disorganized. Contrastingly, the Torso killer was clearly very organized. For example, he murdered his victims elsewhere and used dump sites, which suggests a significant degree of planning. Moreover, he successfully disguised the identity of his victims-only Liz Jackson was identified-unlike JtR who made no attempt to hide the identity of his victims. And, whereas, Torso was a commuter killer, JtR was a marauder, who targeted his victims within a very narrow geographical area, as "he was too disorganized to travel any great distance." See:Wilson, Yardley, Lines, 2015, p 81.
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  #8  
Old 12-28-2015, 07:20 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Hi,

Depending on how many victims he may be responsible for I would say that he exhibited both organised and disorganized characteristics, but mainly disorganized. Contrastingly, the Torso killer was clearly very organized. For example, he murdered his victims elsewhere and used dump sites, which suggests a significant degree of planning. Moreover, he successfully disguised the identity of his victims-only Liz Jackson was identified-unlike JtR who made no attempt to hide the identity of his victims. And, whereas, Torso was a commuter killer, JtR was a marauder, who targeted his victims within a very narrow geographical area, as "he was too disorganized to travel any great distance." See:Wilson, Yardley, Lines, 2015, p 81.
A question for you, John!

It is a proven thing that serialists who stay uncaught often develop a sense of being invincible as they go along. They become more and more bold, and take larger and larger risks.
The Nichols murder is often quoted as the first Ripper deed. Many are baffld by how the killer seems to have developed a rather elaborate method of killing at such an early stage in a murder series. It is therefore often speculated that he must have killed before.

Recklessness is often taken for a disorganized trait. It could equally be a trait of arrogance, showing itself as the killers sense of superority grows.

Here´s the question:
Would you agree that the Ripper could have had former killing experience as he took the life of Polly Nichols, and does the suggestion that he could have arrived at a stage of selfconfidence in August of 1888 owing to such an earlier killing experience sound reasonable to your ears?

Last edited by Fisherman : 12-28-2015 at 07:23 AM.
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  #9  
Old 12-28-2015, 07:37 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
A question for you, John!

It is a proven thing that serialists who stay uncaught often develop a sense of being invincible as they go along. They become more and more bold, and take larger and larger risks.
The Nichols murder is often quoted as the first Ripper deed. Many are baffld by how the killer seems to have developed a rather elaborate method of killing at such an early stage in a murder series. It is therefore often speculated that he must have killed before.

Recklessness is often taken for a disorganized trait. It could equally be a trait of arrogance, showing itself as the killers sense of superority grows.

Here´s the question:
Would you agree that the Ripper could have had former killing experience as he took the life of Polly Nichols, and does the suggestion that he could have arrived at a stage of selfconfidence in August of 1888 owing to such an earlier killing experience sound reasonable to your ears?
Hello Fisherman,

Yes, I would absolutely agree and would be surprised if Nichols was his first victim. Personally, I consider Tabram as a good candidate, and wouldn't totally rule out Emma Smith.

I agree that he had a sense of superiority, and seemed largely unconcerned about the risks he was taking. However, the trait of recklessness seems to apply to all of the C5 murders, as well as Smith and Tabram, although the frenzied nature of the Tabram assault would surely have left the perpetrator covered in blood so, if his next victim was Nichols, this seems to be one mistake that he learned from.
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Old 12-28-2015, 07:52 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Hello Fisherman,

Yes, I would absolutely agree and would be surprised if Nichols was his first victim. Personally, I consider Tabram as a good candidate, and wouldn't totally rule out Emma Smith.

I agree that he had a sense of superiority, and seemed largely unconcerned about the risks he was taking. However, the trait of recklessness seems to apply to all of the C5 murders, as well as Smith and Tabram, although the frenzied nature of the Tabram assault would surely have left the perpetrator covered in blood so, if his next victim was Nichols, this seems to be one mistake that he learned from.
Next: A number of the victims of the Torso killer had their abdomens cut open from the coastal arch down to the pubes. Does that remind you of any other killer...?

In the Rainham case, when piecing together the different parts, the doctors noticed that the cut the victim had, reaching from the coastal arch down to the pubes fit perfectly over all the three parts of the trunk that the killer had produced. Therefore, there can be no doubt that the cut was inflicted BEFORE the trunk was divided. Ergo, the main interest of the killer seemingly lay in cutting open the abdomen of his victim.

In the Elizabeth Jackson case, we know that the killer cut out the uterus. He was accordingly an eviscerator with a flair for opening up the bodies of his victims from the coastal arch down to the pubes. There are three examples of this in the torso tally - and we are poorly informed in some cases.

Jackson also had her heart removed.

Would you say that it is merely coincidental that victims in both series suffered these long cuts to their abdomens, loosing organs?

Last edited by Fisherman : 12-28-2015 at 07:56 AM.
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