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  • Buck's Row Timings

    I thought I would do some timings in and around Durward Street this afternoon.

    1. Firstly, I wanted to time the distance between Dr Llewellyn's old residence of 152 Whitechapel Road and the murder site. Number 152 no longer exists (the numbering jumps from 142 all the way up to 176) but, assuming the rest of the numbering of the road is unchanged, it presumably would have stood a little to the west of the London Hospital, on a site which is currently a car park. So, from where I think 152 would have stood, I timed the walk to near the murder site - walking quite briskly as I assume Thain would have done - as being 4 mins 40 seconds (being 3 mins exactly to the end of Brady St and a further 1 min 40 seconds up as far as I could go into Durward Street). I say near to the murder site because the spot where I think Nichols was murdered is currently blocked off by a barrier due to construction work and inaccessible. So we should add on another 10-20 seconds to get me to the exact spot. So, assuming Thain went straight there and did not collect his cape from the slaughterhouse at Winthrop Street, it should have taken the officer about 5 minutes to walk briskly from the murder site to the outside of 152 Whitechapel Road.

    2. I thought I would also follow in Christer's footsteps and walk the ground between 22 Doveton Street, the home of Charles Cross, and the murder site (or as close as I could get to the site bearing in mind the construction work). As far as I could tell, number 22 no longer exists so I started half way down the street. My route to Buck's Row took me down Wickford Street, into Cephas Street, then across Cambridge Heath Road, through Hedlam Street, across Collywood Street, into Ceron Street then Brady Street and finally into Durward Street. Walking at a brisk pace brought me to the barrier at 6 mins 44 seconds, so I would probably have got to the murder site at about 7 mins, very close to Christer's timings in the documentary.

    3. However, that really was at quite a brisk pace. I wasn't out of breath but I felt it was a decent aerobic workout. I wondered what the timing would be at a much slower pace but still at a pace many people do normally walk. This was difficult for me because I do walk normally quite fast but I controlled my natural instincts and did the same journey in 9 minutes, 50 seconds. In other words it is quite possible that Cross took 10 minutes to reach the murder site in Buck's Row if he walked at a more leisurely pace.

    4. Having taken a diversion to walk around the construction work, I came back down the other end of Durward Street to get as close as possible to the murder site (which I assume was somewhere around the back end of the current Whitechapel Sports Centre). From there, at the same leisurely pace, I walked to the end of Hanbury Street where it meets Vallance Road (formerly Baker's Row). This took me 3 mins, 30 seconds. But that was a slow pace. From there I went on walking at the same slow pace up to Liverpool Street and I arrived at the front of Liverpool Street Station 17 minutes and 38 seconds later. In other words, at a rather slow pace it took me 21 minutes and 8 seconds to get from the murder site to Liverpool Street Station, thus making the whole journey from Doveton Street to Liverpool Street Station at this slow pace as being 31 minutes and 8 seconds.

    5. While I did not do any further timings, had Cross walked at a pace between the very brisk pace that took me 7 mins to get from his home to Buck's Row and the much slower pace that took me 10 minutes to do the same journey he would surely have got to work by 4:00am, had he left his house at 3.30am walking that same mid-pace. I appreciate that he was going to near Broad Street station rather than Liverpool St but the two were adjacent and getting to Pickford's should not have added too much time to his journey.

    N.B. None of my walks were interrupted by traffic or other obstacles.

    Therefore, on the basis that Cross knew the exact time it would take him to get to work, regularly left his house at 3:30 and arrived punctually at 4:00am, I would conclude that Cross walked at a pace that would have taken him 8 or even 9 minutes to get to Buck's Row and maintaining this pace would have got him to work on time.

    Not that any of it really matters because we don't know what exact time Cross left his home nor what time Robert Paul left his house and even if Paul thought it was a minute or two before 3.45 his clock might have been a few minutes fast so that he really left a minute or two before 3.40. All pointless, therefore, but no harm in doing it!

  • #2
    Hi David

    Rob Clack is the man for topography and altered street numbering, but according to the 1891 census which presumably describes the enumerator's most economical route, 152 Whitechapel Rd is followed by 153 (uninhabited) and then a public house at 154. The enumerator then turns into Brady St.

    The public house was the Queen's Head :

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    • #3
      Thank you for that info Rob. If that's the case then 152 was on the opposite side of the road to where I started from and, it seems, much closer to Brady Street. So it should have taken about 2 minutes for Thain to have reached the doctor from the murder site.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Robert View Post
        Hi David

        Rob Clack is the man for topography and altered street numbering, but according to the 1891 census which presumably describes the enumerator's most economical route, 152 Whitechapel Rd is followed by 153 (uninhabited) and then a public house at 154. The enumerator then turns into Brady St.

        The public house was the Queen's Head :

        http://pubshistory.com/LondonPubs/Wh...eensHead.shtml
        Thanks Robert, the numbering changed around 1899 as far as I am aware.
        Number 152 (or whats left of it) is the R.J.M building.

        Click image for larger version

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        Rob

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        • #5
          Thanks Rob

          Here's the census :
          Attached Files

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          • #6
            And here's the 1889 Directory

            Click image for larger version

Name:	Whitechapel High Street 1889 01.JPG
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ID:	665868

            Rob

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            • #7
              Yes Rob, in 1901 the pub is at 317 and numbers 301 - 315 are pulled down. Llewellyn is at 108 Stamford Hill, Hackney.

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              • #8
                I feel sorry for Handford and his tea.

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                • #9
                  With all the tea rooms in the area it makes you wonder if there is a connection....

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                  • #10
                    Well, it's certainly something to throw in the pot.

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                    • #11
                      Is that your trash on the sidewalk, Rob?

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                      • #12
                        David Orsam: I thought I would do some timings in and around Durward Street this afternoon.

                        1. Firstly, I wanted to time the distance between Dr Llewellyn's old residence of 152 Whitechapel Road and the murder site. Number 152 no longer exists (the numbering jumps from 142 all the way up to 176) but, assuming the rest of the numbering of the road is unchanged, it presumably would have stood a little to the west of the London Hospital, on a site which is currently a car park. So, from where I think 152 would have stood, I timed the walk to near the murder site - walking quite briskly as I assume Thain would have done - as being 4 mins 40 seconds (being 3 mins exactly to the end of Brady St and a further 1 min 40 seconds up as far as I could go into Durward Street). I say near to the murder site because the spot where I think Nichols was murdered is currently blocked off by a barrier due to construction work and inaccessible. So we should add on another 10-20 seconds to get me to the exact spot. So, assuming Thain went straight there and did not collect his cape from the slaughterhouse at Winthrop Street, it should have taken the officer about 5 minutes to walk briskly from the murder site to the outside of 152 Whitechapel Road.

                        Neil said "Run at once to Dr Llewellyn", so I think he would have ran. But it is a small issue, since the important thing is to show that it would not take long to reach the address. Just as you have had pointed out to you, it seems that you have placed the practice where it was not!

                        2. I thought I would also follow in Christer's footsteps and walk the ground between 22 Doveton Street, the home of Charles Cross, and the murder site (or as close as I could get to the site bearing in mind the construction work). As far as I could tell, number 22 no longer exists so I started half way down the street. My route to Buck's Row took me down Wickford Street, into Cephas Street, then across Cambridge Heath Road, through Hedlam Street, across Collywood Street, into Ceron Street then Brady Street and finally into Durward Street. Walking at a brisk pace brought me to the barrier at 6 mins 44 seconds, so I would probably have got to the murder site at about 7 mins, very close to Christer's timings in the documentary.

                        The layout today differs from that of 1888. There´s a Sainsbury´s right in the middle of things (Paul once lived nearby where the cashiers work today), and the old stretch would have been around a minute shorter, as I understand things.

                        3. However, that really was at quite a brisk pace. I wasn't out of breath but I felt it was a decent aerobic workout. I wondered what the timing would be at a much slower pace but still at a pace many people do normally walk. This was difficult for me because I do walk normally quite fast but I controlled my natural instincts and did the same journey in 9 minutes, 50 seconds. In other words it is quite possible that Cross took 10 minutes to reach the murder site in Buck's Row if he walked at a more leisurely pace.

                        He was late for work. He would not walk leisurely, would he?

                        On a different note, Andy and I did NOT walk briskly. We walked at a very normal pace, not hurrying, not getting lazy.

                        4. Having taken a diversion to walk around the construction work, I came back down the other end of Durward Street to get as close as possible to the murder site (which I assume was somewhere around the back end of the current Whitechapel Sports Centre). From there, at the same leisurely pace, I walked to the end of Hanbury Street where it meets Vallance Road (formerly Baker's Row). This took me 3 mins, 30 seconds. But that was a slow pace. From there I went on walking at the same slow pace up to Liverpool Street and I arrived at the front of Liverpool Street Station 17 minutes and 38 seconds later. In other words, at a rather slow pace it took me 21 minutes and 8 seconds to get from the murder site to Liverpool Street Station, thus making the whole journey from Doveton Street to Liverpool Street Station at this slow pace as being 31 minutes and 8 seconds.

                        5. While I did not do any further timings, had Cross walked at a pace between the very brisk pace that took me 7 mins to get from his home to Buck's Row and the much slower pace that took me 10 minutes to do the same journey he would surely have got to work by 4:00am, had he left his house at 3.30am walking that same mid-pace. I appreciate that he was going to near Broad Street station rather than Liverpool St but the two were adjacent and getting to Pickford's should not have added too much time to his journey.

                        N.B. None of my walks were interrupted by traffic or other obstacles.

                        I have not timed these stretches myself, but I know Edard has - multiple times. And he says that there is no way Lechmere could have been at Pickfords at 4 AM if he was in Bucks Row at 3.45, I know that much. So Edward is the person you should discuss this with.

                        Therefore, on the basis that Cross knew the exact time it would take him to get to work, regularly left his house at 3:30 and arrived punctually at 4:00am, I would conclude that Cross walked at a pace that would have taken him 8 or even 9 minutes to get to Buck's Row and maintaining this pace would have got him to work on time.

                        Not that any of it really matters because we don't know what exact time Cross left his home nor what time Robert Paul left his house and even if Paul thought it was a minute or two before 3.45 his clock might have been a few minutes fast so that he really left a minute or two before 3.40. All pointless, therefore, but no harm in doing it!

                        No harm at all - in fact, we must do these exercises to understand the matter better.

                        The best,
                        Fisherman

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                          Neil said "Run at once to Dr Llewellyn", so I think he would have ran. But it is a small issue, since the important thing is to show that it would not take long to reach the address. Just as you have had pointed out to you, it seems that you have placed the practice where it was not!
                          Fisherman, did you miss my post #3 in this thread where I said that if the doctor's practice was next to the current number 317 - as it obviously was thanks to Rob and Robert's helpful information - it would have taken Thain about two minutes to reach the doctor (at the brisk pace at which I walked). I don't see any material difference between the times based on the wrong and right starting points as both timings were pretty fast. Overall, allowing a couple of minutes for Thain to appear at the end of Buck's Row and then for him to get to Neil and then to go from there to 152 Whitechapel Road, and assuming that "run" was a figure of speech, then it seems reasonable to allow five minutes from the time Neil discovered the body for Thain to reach 152. So if Neil discovered the body at precisely 3:45 it would mean that Thain was knocking on Dr Llewellyn's door at about 3:50. Now, I can easily see that someone woken up in the middle of the night, at 3:50am, without a digital alarm clock next to his bed, might well have estimated the time he was woken up as being "about" 4:00am. We do not have a fixed time on which to judge whether it was or wasn't. So there's nothing really in this.

                          Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                          The layout today differs from that of 1888. There´s a Sainsbury´s right in the middle of things (Paul once lived nearby where the cashiers work today), and the old stretch would have been around a minute shorter, as I understand things.
                          In the documentary, at the moment you and Andy Griffiths started your timed walk from Doveton Street to Durward Street, the voiceover said: "The street layout is the same now as it was over a century ago". I did not see any Sainsbury's in the middle of things and certainly there was no Sainsbury's blocking my path on the route I took. In any event, I set out the exact route I took so if it was different to yours please let me know.

                          Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                          He was late for work. He would not walk leisurely, would he?
                          Where is the evidence that he was late for work when he left his house? I don't believe there is any. Perhaps after discovering the body and being delayed a bit he became late.

                          Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                          On a different note, Andy and I did NOT walk briskly. We walked at a very normal pace, not hurrying, not getting lazy.
                          If you went the same route as me then something is strange. I know the time it took me with a brisk walk and I have recorded it here.

                          Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                          I have not timed these stretches myself, but I know Edard has - multiple times. And he says that there is no way Lechmere could have been at Pickfords at 4 AM if he was in Bucks Row at 3.45, I know that much. So Edward is the person you should discuss this with.
                          Your starting point is obviously wrong because, by your own timings, Cross arrived at Buck's Row at 3:37. Perhaps you have become so focussed on the notion that Cross was the killer that you have forgotten that he might not have been. Leaving Pickfords aside for a moment, I agree that I could not have got from Buck's Row to Liverpool Street Station in 15 minutes but Lechmere didn't need to because (on your timings) he had 23 minutes to get from Buck's Row to work on his normal journey. Based on the fact that, with a very slow walk, I reached the front of Liverpool St station in under 22 minutes then (on the basis that I did a 10 minute slow walk in 7 minutes thus shaving off 3 minutes from every 10) I am certain I could have done that same walk from the murder site in 18 minutes. So, if I left Doveton Street at 3:30am I'm sure I could reach the front of Liverpool Street station by 3:55am. If I need five minutes to get from the front of the station to Pickford's then there is no problem. Had I been delayed by discovering a body and needed to find a police officer then yes I probably would have been a few minutes late.

                          Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                          in fact, we must do these exercises to understand the matter better.
                          I agree which is why I did the walks. Timings can be very important BUT for timings to assist we need a certain definite fixed point such as a clock striking or a bell ringing so that all other times can be worked around that. Or else we need everyone to have synchronised their clocks. In a situation where everyone's clocks can be a few minutes out, and people are using the word "about", it's just plain silly to disregard margins of error of five, ten or even fifteen minutes.

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                          • #14
                            "Is that your trash on the sidewalk, Rob?"

                            Scott, I trust you're not addressing Robert J McLaughlin (RJM)?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                              The layout today differs from that of 1888. There´s a Sainsbury´s right in the middle of things (Paul once lived nearby where the cashiers work today), and the old stretch would have been around a minute shorter, as I understand things.
                              I have been pondering this statement of yours Fisherman and reckon that what you were trying to say is that a Sainsbury's blocks the path that Paul would have taken from his home in Foster Street to Buck's Row in 1888 - and I think I know where that Sainsbury's is - but, if that is the case, it certainly does not affect the route that Cross would have taken.

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