Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
General Discussion: The Weapon - by Damaso Marte 16 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Kansas Physician Confirms Howard Report - by TradeName 1 hours ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Kansas Physician Confirms Howard Report - by TradeName 2 hours ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Kansas Physician Confirms Howard Report - by TradeName 2 hours ago.
General Discussion: The Weapon - by Herlock Sholmes 5 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Varqm 7 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - (11 posts)
General Discussion: The Weapon - (3 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Kansas Physician Confirms Howard Report - (3 posts)
Ripper Notes: Status of Ripper Notes? - (2 posts)
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #51  
Old 12-30-2011, 02:11 PM
Jimi Jimi is offline
Constable
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 99
Default Interesting

Hi All
Hi Jimi
Hi Greg
All good ,interesting points. His motivation. For me the simple answer is that Jack wanted to kill and not get caught, personally I don't think Jack went out initially to organ harvest, he only gained that compulsion after his first kill.
" I'll have that while i'm here" sort of thing, "i can use that later on"
Still on motivation, perhaps if we could discover Jacks stressor, the initial devastating event that drove him over the edge, that may give us some insight into his motivation. Actually I think compulsion is a better word.
I would tend to disagree that Jack didn't know what he was doing, subconciously or not. He knew what he was doing was wrong,he didn't want to get caught.
I do believe that there is the possibility that Jack Staked out the prostitutes places of business, which shows Jack had forethought.
The thing is was Jacks original crime commited with rape in mind,but as you say we know little of Jacks desires, but isn't part of the game to work that out?
You mention Jacks hatred and fear, but does it have to be that?
A sort of " die, you bitch,die, Why did you have to die, you bitch" isn't that more about loss and grief?
Just a thought.
Keep Well
Jimi
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 12-30-2011, 05:33 PM
GregBaron GregBaron is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 826
Default Insane Act...

Hi Jimi et al,

Quote:
I would tend to disagree that Jack didn't know what he was doing, subconciously or not. He knew what he was doing was wrong,he didn't want to get caught.
Not knowing what one is doing and having hidden subconscious urges are two different things. He certainly could have planned but may himself not have completely understood his dark compulsion.

Quote:
but isn't part of the game to work that out?
Yes Jimi that can be part of the parlor game and is quite fine. Just make sure you mention that you are speculating or else the minimalists will attack with impunity.

Quote:
A sort of " die, you bitch,die, Why did you have to die, you bitch" isn't that more about loss and grief?
I struggle to believe it's about loss and grief as he tries to remove her head from her body. Again it's hard to understand the motivation for an insane act but speculating hatred is involved isn't a huge stretch.

I doubt rape was ever part of his plan.



Greg
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 12-30-2011, 06:28 PM
Jimi Jimi is offline
Constable
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 99
Default Urges

Hi All
Hi Greg
Might I just say i am only a layman trying to understand the mind of a murderer.
If Jack had hidden subconcious urges till his first murder, I can understand, but after his fist kill they are no longer part of his subconcious nor hidden, because he obviously enjoyed it and wanted to kill again. He hunted for victims, surely, planning to kill and mutilate them. As to him understanding his compulsion,well, would he have wanted to? He enjoyed killing.
My opinion only,of course.
As to loss and grief not playing a part,I agree its likely that hatred was part of Jacks motivation, but where did that hatred come from?
I can remember seeing my younger brother hit by a car and flying 80 feet through the air. I,completely irrationly, hated every car driver that passed by while waiting for an ambulance and would willingly have attacked them.
I was 10 years old at the time. I wonder what sort of rage/hatred that could have manifested itself into if my brother hadn't lived.
Loss and grief and hatred are all very powerful emotions. Surely you must agree it's only a short step from one to the other in a troubled mind.
Keep Well
Jimi
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:15 PM
Flagg Flagg is offline
Cadet
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 27
Default

The act of murder was sex to him. The hunt was the foreplay.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 04-13-2012, 02:13 PM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,783
Default

There is of course the theory that Jack had anal sex with Mary Jane Kelly and its not 100% sure that Jack didn't have sex with any of the other victims.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 04-13-2012, 06:02 PM
Errata Errata is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tennessee, U.S.
Posts: 2,937
Default

He may very well have had sex with his victims post mortem. Just not through any of the conventional orifices, if it's possible to put it delicately. I highly doubt doctors would look for seminal fluid in the wounds.
__________________
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:03 PM
Archaic Archaic is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 1,902
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flagg View Post
The act of murder was sex to him. The hunt was the foreplay.
Hi Flagg. You put that very well.

Jack did rape his victims- but on the streets of Whitechapel he raped them with his knife and with his hands. His idea of "sex" wasn't our idea of sex... his idea of sex was experiencing the feeling of "total control" during he grotesque, deadly, and obscene violation of a woman.

That was how he derived sexual excitement and sexual pleasure, fantasizing about and then doing things that would utterly horrify and revolt a normal person.

Once he was safely away from the crime scene, God only knows what he did with the body parts that he took as trophies.

Errata is correct, sexual psychopaths have been known to penetrate the very wounds of their victims. Basically they penetrate the victim with a knife, then with a physical organ... in other words, they create their own "sexual" orifice.

It's hard to even think about, but grasping these concepts and being aware of the range of deviant sexual behaviors gives one valuable insight into the warped minds of sexual serial killers.

We don't know what additional deviant sexual acts Jack performed upon the corpse of Mary Kelly, when he had the luxury of time and privacy... but you can be sure that taking her body apart with a knife was for him a very pleasurable "sexual" act.

And you can be sure that Jack the Ripper continued to violate his victims- both those he had slaughtered and those he wished to become his future victims- in his sick fantasies.

It's nauseating, but it's true.

Best regards,
Archaic
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:32 PM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,783
Default

Archaic you make some good points. Jack possibly penetrated the victims wounds or masturbated at the crime scenes.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 04-14-2012, 02:19 AM
Archaic Archaic is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 1,902
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wheat View Post
Archaic you make some good points. Jack possibly penetrated the victims wounds or masturbated at the crime scenes.
Thanks John.

My feeling about that issue is that- with the possible exception of Mary Kelly's murder- the Ripper waited until he was safely away from the crime scene to engage in activities like masturbation. I think while at the crime scene he used his hands and his knife as "surrogate" sexual organs.

Of course, I can't prove it, but from my knowledge of Psychology I think that he was the kind of killer who wanted to be in complete control of a situation and of the victim, and he wanted to mutilate, violate, degrade and sexually expose his victim to the public view.

I don't think he would have risked being sexually exposed himself by being "caught with his pants down", as the saying goes. He didn't want to be the "exposed" or "vulnerable" one. He got his jollies through mutilating his victims with a knife in the public streets and taking bloody body parts as trophies, and while indulging in that high-risk behavior he had to be ready at any second to make his escape. I believe he waited until he was in a safe place with total privacy before engaging in any sexual behaviors that might have made him feel vulnerable. Even the delay necessitated in that would have affected him sexually and heightened his pleasure.

Only in Mary Kelly's room did he have the "luxury" of more time and a little privacy, so he probably indulged in a wider range of behaviors. For example, it's my opinion that he probably stripped naked before dissecting Mary's corpse. It would have kept the blood off his clothes and given him enhanced sexual pleasure.

I've often wondered if there was ever a case where the Ripper abducted a victim and had them at his mercy in some private location where there was little chance of being interrupted... if so, I think he would have experimented with all kinds of deviant sexual behaviors, including sadistic torture.

Personally I think there's a good case to be made for Jack having been responsible for at least one or two of the Torso killings. That killer did have the luxury of more time and greater privacy, as is attested to by the fact that the victims were dismembered and then disposed of piece-meal.

(Ugh...I typed that word "piece-meal" off the type of my head, and re-reading it just made me feel queasy. This is such a horrible subject! I sincerely strive to understand the psychology of the murders, but thinking about them often nauseates me.)

That's enough for now.

Best regards,
Archaic
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 04-14-2012, 04:19 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13,841
Default time

Hello John.

"Jack possibly penetrated the victims wounds or masturbated at the crime scenes."

Do you really think he had time for this? The time window was small in Mitre sq.

Cheers.
LC
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.